Medals. Royal Scots Fusiliers.

[Kiernan]

Good evening,

I hope everyone is well. Please bear with me as this is the first time using the GWF. My grandmother’s first husband Cpl John Flynn ( aka Thomson) long story: 1st Battalion RSF 10048  was killed in F&F on the 11/11/1914. I do believe all his belongings were returned to her but there was never a mention of medals because my Gran never spoke about it. 
Another relative my great Uncle John Reid ( my gran’s older brother)  10366 2nd Battalion RSF was awarded the DCM and the Cross of St. George 4th Class. He was KIA in 17/5/1915. Mr Russ Warburton has researched on my behalf on this forum for me.

If it is the case that John Reid’s medals were passed on to his eldest sister Grace Gibson.  (nee Reid), she would not have had them for very long as she succumbed to the Spanish Influenza in 1918 which swept Europe and beyond.

Kind Regards

MK

 

[Michelle Young]

Presumably this is the thread your refer to?

 

[Michelle Young]

John Flynn has a medal index card which says he was entitled to the 1914 star, War and Victory medals. 

[Kiernan]

Thank you Michelle, 

I thought that would be the case. However, as my Gran never spoke about her loss, I would like to know where the medals went. Suffice to say my late mum never spoke of it and my siblings were really surprised when I informed them that our Gran had Been married before.

Intriguing to say the least.

Again many thanks .

[mancpal]

The medal index card that Michelle referred to shows nothing to indicate his medals were returned for one of numerous reasons so I’d imagine they were received by his NofK. 
It’s always possible that his medals are still around somewhere, if you join the British Medal Forum I understand they have a section for seeking family medals, by placing his details there you may find a collector has them. Alerts can also be set up on eBay in case they crop up for sale. 
I suppose the logical place to start is with your own family, could they have passed through another branch of the family? 
After all that you may not be seeking his medals in the first place !

Simon

[Kiernan]

Thank you so much Simon. Greatly appreciated for the information . It’s where to begin I suppose. 
Regards

Mk

[TEW]

If we're asking who had John Flynn's medals I'd suggest that as MK's Grandmother recieved his belongings she would have also been noted as the recipient for any medals forthcoming.

The Effects Branch who dealt with returning personal items (amongst other things) had to satisfy themselves that anyone claiming the items was legally entitled to do so.

Once the legalities had been settled the Effects Branch would allow the infantry records to return personal items.

I've been looking at many such forms and have yet to see one that does not say Any medals forthcoming are to be sent to the same person.

Occasionally, someone fraudulently claims the medals or items. If there is a counter claim very stern letters are sent out demanding their return. Then a visit from the police is suggested.

Problems could arise if Grandmother died before the medals were available (don't think that's feasible here).

TEW 

[Kiernan]

Thank you.

As my Gran died 48 years ago aged 80. I was 15 at the time. She never mentioned as far as I am aware anything about her first husband. This has turned into an interesting quest and all because my late mum had a different middle name from her siblings.

Thank you for reply. The search goes on.

Regards

MK

 

[Matlock1418]

11 hours ago, Kiernan said:

As my Gran died 48 years ago aged 80. I was 15 at the time. She never mentioned as far as I am aware anything about her first husband. This has turned into an interesting quest and all because my late mum had a different middle name from her siblings.

MK,

Welcome to GWF.

I have no idea what you know and/or what you might want to to know outwith your medal enquiry.  Family situations can be a puzzle.

The Western Front Association / Fold3 pension records have a pension index cards for John FLYNN (alias THOMSON), 10048, Royal Scots Fusiliers

These show his widow and daughter receiving a pension allowance from June 1915 [sadly the daughter appears to have died in July 1915]

Should you wish to perhaps better understand those pension records and the likely consequences of events than I would be pleased to assist you, but I will not provide here & now - only should you wish.

M

[Kiernan]

Thank you for helping me with my enquiry. Yes, I do believe my Gran received some money, twice I believe. Their daughter Flora did die in July 1915 of Whooping Cough and other complications. My great uncle, my Gran’s brother died in 17/5/1915 at the Nueve Chapelle . I just cannot imagine the heartbreak my Gran endured as did hundreds of thousands of other spouses & children did as well.  Can you enlighten me, did pensions solely go to wives and dependents. What if the soldier was not married. I do know that all my uncle’s siblings received money but his eldest sister was refused his pension. 
So sorry this is long winded.

Thank you

Regards

MK

 

[Matlock1418]

Clearly a very tragic period.

No problem with your questions.

11 hours ago, Kiernan said:

I do believe my Gran received some money, twice I believe. Their daughter Flora did die in July 1915 of Whooping Cough and other complications.

John FLYNN [THOMPSON] I'll post a pension index card with some interpretation as it should offer a bit of further interest [in this case and perhaps wider for you].

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

The sad aftermath ... his widow made an initial claim for a war pension for herself and for a pension allowance for her child under the prevailing Royal Warrant [which in this case would initially have been the 1914/15 RW] - Article 11 [widow] and Article 12 [child(ren)].  There are three Pension Index Cards at the Western Front Association/Fold3 [unfortunately a rather less commonly visited source of info] - this is probably the most informative record

Much is probably self-explanatory but a few interpretations for you and to help avoid potential mis-interpretations:

This pension index card was in the soldier’s name and there was another briefer card in the widow’s name so they could be cross-referenced/accessed.  These came from/lead to a ledger page(s) via the claim case references and then to an awards file. Unfortunately, the initial ledger appears lost [probably destroyed] and the awards file probably deliberately destroyed once its use was passed [as was the common case]

The original claim would have been made through the Chelsea Hospital and the Case No. 38 claim reference was potentially later replaced by a Ministry of Pensions one when they took over the management of pension claims, if she had not already remarried [no indication on the PICs].

Form 104-88 received  = Death notification of a married man sent from the man’s Record Office to the War Office.

Date of notification of death: It is rather unclear as to whom this notification was being made but one might think it is likely to his widow

Form 104-76 received = Declaration made by the Widow of a Soldier in support of claim to pension for herself and children

Date of birth: 24.12.95 = his widow’s - required because her pension could be age-related/supplemented if she was >35 [which she obviously was not]. Such an age banding of pension is believed to address the less likely possibility of re-marriage with increasing age.

Her pension rate being based on her late husband being a Private / pension Class V soldier.

The standard pension initially paid to his widow was 15/- per week from 14.6.16 [there usually was an approx. six-month gap between death and paying of a pension to allow six months for any presumption of death and for calculation] - in the meantime standard Separation Allowances continued to be paid – so, unlike what many observers think when they first see such a card, there was not a complete absence of monies in the intervening period].

1915 RW 10/- pw for a widow <35y plus an increment of 5/0 [60d] pw for the first child = 15/- pw

The rates went up in the following years but I can't comment further as I do not know the full circumstances of his widow and any remarriage

The child(ren)'s allowance(s) were paid to their mother, typically until they reached 16 when such payments ceased [occasionally up to 21 if they were in some form of further vocational training or sometimes if they had impairment/disability] - then the child(ren) would certainly be expected to go out to work to earn their keep. Or paid until the earlier death of a child. Hence their recorded dates.  We can clearly see the date of death of her daughter aged 1 [birth & death details also available on ScotlandsPeople]

We cannot see when his widow remarried as you say she did - at which point her pension would have ceased and she would have got a one-off lump-sum re-marriage gratuity bounty [two or one years' worth of pension according to the date].  In this scenario the children's allowances would continue to be paid to her, if the child was still alive [though I rather suspect she was not].

'Noted for Novel' =  special treatment/calculation required.

S.A. = means Separation Allowance - A portion of a soldier's pay which was matched by the government and sent to his dependants to make sure they were not left destitute while he was on active service.  SA were often slightly more generous than pensions and children’s allowances because a wife had to maintain a home in the same level of comfort as before ready for her husband’s return whilst a widow did not have such a need and costs – after all, apparently, she could then cut back and down-size her home!  Typically, the No. for whom SA is paid on the card reflected the number of children.

WAJ336 = possibly a certificate identity number to allow for the collection of the pension and allowances from a Post Office - but I am rather more cautious about that.

DEAD = the claim became dead eventually - Presumably on his widow's remarriage

The printer's marks at the bottom show the printing dates [3/15 & 9/19] and large numbers [batches of 20,000] of these index cards sadly required to be used to help manually administer pensions using ledgers and files [by a small army of pension clerks, most of them female - No computers in those days!].

His widow would later typically get the balance of her late husband’s pay/’Effects’ and a War Gratuity [based on the length of his War Service] – possibly through a soldier’s Will or as NoK - But surely those, like her relatively small pension, wouldn’t have really made up for the loss of a husband and father – See the Army’s Register of Soldiers’ Effects [RoSE = A financial ledger - From the National Army Museum now typically available via Ancestry]. You may be able to access this or another member might perhaps supply for discussion [I can't access]

11 hours ago, Kiernan said:

My great uncle, my Gran’s brother died in 17/5/1915 at the Nueve Chapelle . I just cannot imagine the heartbreak my Gran endured as did hundreds of thousands of other spouses & children did as well.  Can you enlighten me, did pensions solely go to wives and dependents. What if the soldier was not married. I do know that all my uncle’s siblings received money but his eldest sister was refused his pension. 

I cannot speak more authoritively without at name and details but ... War pensions and allowances, as dealt with by the Ministry of Pensions, went to a Dependant(s).

Widow, 'unmarried wife', child(ren) [possibly to their guardian(s) if a 'Motherless Child(ren)' i.e. an orphan(s)], parent(s), sibling(s), guardian(s), grand-parent(s), sibling(s), and the like [I think that is a pretty comprehensive list but I am not guaranteeing there couldn't be others or variants!] - but dependancy had to have been proved [very typically through marriage/parentage or a Separation Allowance being paid to them whilst the soldier served] - usually it was only one main dependant with child(ren) added up to them reaching age 16 [though in some cases if children were split amongst several guardians then several recipients would receive for the various children]

You must also remember that payments/division of a man's monetary 'Effects' and his cash 'War Gratuity' could frequently be split amongst parent(s) and/or siblings if the soldier was unmarried - see Army Register of Soldiers Effects - that was an Army thing [and not a MInistry of Pensions function].

I hope of interest/value to you.

M

Edited 19 June by Matlock1418
typo

[Kiernan]

Thank you for helping me with my enquiry. Yes, I do believe my Gran received some money, twice I believe. Their daughter Flora did die in July 1915 of Whooping Cough and other complications. My great uncle, my Gran’s brother died in 17/5/1915 at the Nueve Chapelle . I just cannot imagine the heartbreak my Gran endured as did hundreds of thousands of other spouses & children did as well.  Can you enlighten me, did pensions solely go to wives and dependents. What if the soldier was not married. I do know that all my uncle’s siblings received money but his eldest sister was refused his pension. 
So sorry this is long winded.

I am forever in your debt.

Thank you

Regards

MK