RFT Posted 21 June Share Posted 21 June 47807, Pte William Charles Hutchens, Welsh Regt. An appeal for help - This is not a request for downloads of all and/or any records. As I only take out short term subscription to FMP in the winter months, does any subscribing member know if a comprehensive service record and/or pension record etc exists for the above soldier. Any help will be greatly appreciated - I don't really want to subscribe to FMP if nothing substantive is available. Thank you in advance. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 21 June Admin Share Posted 21 June Rob This is all FMP have for that name and number Similarly from Ancestry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFT Posted 21 June Author Share Posted 21 June Thank you David. W C Hutchens appears to have been a resident of Penzance, and his medals, recently sold, make reference to him being a cabinet maker and undertaker. I have a special interest in this individual as he once resided not far from where I was born and was also known to my late-father. I would certainly like to know much more about him. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan1892 Posted 21 June Share Posted 21 June 23 minutes ago, RFT said: and/or pension record etc exists Nothing coming up on Fold3/Western Front Association Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFT Posted 21 June Author Share Posted 21 June Much obliged. Thank you, Allan1892, for taking the time to look for me. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 21 June Share Posted 21 June 23 minutes ago, RFT said: As I only take out short term subscription to FMP in the winter months If you have subscribed to FindMyPast in the past, (or Ancestry for that matter), you will still be able to log-in and view the indexes to do this sort of search. Some documents, such as the Medal Index Cards on Ancestry can also be seen with such a "free" account. Also means when either of those sites offers a free weekend, (typically around Remembrance Day but there has recently been one in the UK around D-Day), you can go straight in. That extends to Ancestry's sister site, Fold3, as you can use your Ancestry ID to log in. I see that Cornwall Library Service also offer free access to FindMyPast to members, although you have to be in the Library. https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/libraries-museums-and-archives/libraries/your-free-library-resources/online-reference-library/genealogy-and-history-resources/ They also have access to the British Newspaper Archives - he may crop up in local press reports over the course of his lifetime. 1 hour ago, RFT said: I would certainly like to know much more about him. MiC shows he only qualified for the Victory Medal and British War Medal, so didn't serve in a Theatre of War until the 1st January 1916 at the very earliest. The related Medal Roll, if the clerk followed the instructions on the form, should show all the units serves with overseas. (Images on Ancestry, transcriptions of variable quality on FindMyPast). For ease of reference of other posters, the description accompanying the medal sale reads: William Charles was born to William and Mary Jane in Penzance, Cornwall in 1887. We see in 1911, he was assisting his fathers business, builder and undertaker and living at 79 High Street, Penzance, Cornwall. He entered service with the 19th Battalion Welsh Regiment (Glamorgan Pioneers). In 1921, we see him living at Tewesecan, Sennen, Penzance and working on his grandfathers farm. In 1939, now a cabinet maker, he is living at 4 Larover Terrace in Penzance and living with his wife, Elizabeth Ellen Rodda. William died in 1957. The medals are mounted on card with modern replacement ribbons. https://www.militariazone.com/groups/wwi-pair-hutchens-welsh-regiment-glamorgan-pioneers-penzance-cornwall-/itm65907 As a very rough and ready guide to when he might have gone overseas, the earliest death I can see amongst men with nearby numbers is 47822 Private William Lewis Stone, who was killed in action serving with the 19th Battalion on the 25th February 1917. While it could have been a lucky cohort, the 19th Battalion had been in France since December 1915, so likely they were all part of a later draft. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/welsh-regiment/ A search of men with nearby service numbers may turn up some with surviving service records that might give some indication of how at least the early part of his army career might have gone. Should it turn out that all of his overseas service was with the 19th Battalion, then their war diaries can currently be downloaded for free from the National Archive. You do need to sign in with your account, but if you don't have one then even that can be set-up as part of plaing your first order. Just click on "sign in" on any page of the online catalogue and follow the instructions - no financial details are requested. The 19th Battalion War Diary covering December 1915 to May 1919 can be found in the online catalogue here:- https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354137 Very unlikely to mention him by name, but will give sone idea of where they were and what they up to. The Battalion was the Divisional Pioneers of the 38th (Welsh) Division - there is a little bit on the Division on our parent site, The Long, Long Trail, here http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/38th-welsh-division/ Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan1892 Posted 21 June Share Posted 21 June 1 minute ago, PRC said: The related Medal Roll, if the clerk followed the instructions on the form, should show all the units serves with overseas Only shows the 19th Battalion (image courtesy of Ancestry) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 21 June Share Posted 21 June 1 minute ago, Allan1892 said: Only shows the 19th Battalion (image courtesy of Ancestry) Sometimes those multiple entries for the same Battalion are because there are further entries in the far-right column showing "attachments" and then return to the Battalion. Could I trouble you to take a look just in case - and apologies in advance if I've got it wrong! Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 21 June Admin Share Posted 21 June Nothing other Infantry Base Depot War diary for 19th Bn if you haven't already got it 19 Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers | The National Archives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFT Posted 21 June Author Share Posted 21 June (edited) My thanks once again to DavidOwen, PRC and Allan 1892 for your valued contributions. There are a number of transcription errors contained in the medal's "for sale" description but is not an issue - To clarify - 1921 Census: Trewesecan, Sennen should read "Trevescan, Sennen." 1939 Register: Larover Terrace, Penzance should read "Taroveor Terrace, Penzance." Incidentally, by the late-1940s, W C Hutchens, relocated to Belgravia Street, Penzance. I'll certainly get bck to FMP and also check out 19 Bn RWF at the N.A. Regards Rob Edited 21 June by RFT Updated 21.06.2024 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Atkins Posted 21 June Share Posted 21 June Thought I'd look for any patterns in the medal rolls - Hutchens is at the low end of a block of numbers (I stopped counting at 40) allocated to 19th Bn men, the vast majority of whom seem only to have served in that battalion (a few were attached to e.g. Corps or Divisional Signal Companies; three had previous service recorded - one man with 1/West Somerset Yeomanry, two with 16th Welsh). Most men have similar "reposting" (don't know the correct term, sorry) details whereby the 19th Bn is recorded more than once, as with Hutchens. All seem to have Infantry Base Depot in the "Remarks" column. You can probably make more of this information than I can (at least, I hope so). Cheers, Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFT Posted 21 June Author Share Posted 21 June (edited) 5 hours ago, PRC said: IFor ease of reference of other posters, the description accompanying the medal sale reads: William Charles was born to William and Mary Jane in Penzance, Cornwall in 1887. We see in 1911, he was assisting his fathers business, builder and undertaker and living at 79 High Street, Penzance, Cornwall. He entered service with the 19th Battalion Welsh Regiment (Glamorgan Pioneers). In 1921, we see him living at Tewesecan, Sennen, Penzance and working on his grandfathers farm. In 1939, now a cabinet maker, he is living at 4 Larover Terrace in Penzance and living with his wife, Elizabeth Ellen Rodda. William died in 1957. Cheers, Peter An invoice dated 2 March 1931, in my possession, confirms one C Hutchens was residing at 4 Taroveor Terrace, Penzance, and trading as a Shop Fitter, Cabinet Maker & Undertaker. Workshop address at that time was located at 3 Bread Street, Penzance. Presumably C Hutchens and W C Hutchens are one and the same. It appears from the above mentioned 1911 Census Returns, William Charles was assisting his father, in the latter's business, and that he was residing at 79 High Street, Penzance. It would be most helpful if someone would be kind enough to confirm the full name of his father & mother, if indeed they're listed in said 1911 Returns. Thank you all for your assistance. Rob Edited 21 June by RFT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan1892 Posted 21 June Share Posted 21 June 20 minutes ago, RFT said: It would be most helpful if someone would be kind enough to confirm the full name of his father & mother, if indeed they're listed in said 1911 Returns. William and Mary Jane of 79 High Street, Penzance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan1892 Posted 21 June Share Posted 21 June William Hutchens married Mary Jane Peak, Quarter 1, 1882, Penzance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 21 June Share Posted 21 June (edited) The birth of a William Charles Hutchens, mothers’ maiden name Peak, was registered with the civil authorities in the Penzance District in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1886. On the 1891 Census of England & Wales there is a likely household recorded at No.4 Causewayhead, Penzance. Although it is headed up by a married couple John, (54) and Frances Peak, (60), amongst those recorded in the household are their son-in-law William Hutchens, (28, Carpenter, born Penzance), married daughter Mary Jane L. Hutchens*, (29) and three of their grandchildren – Edward J. Hutchens, (7), Charles Hutchens, (4) and George Hutchens, (1) – all born Penzance. *The birth of a Mary Jane Ladner Peak was registered with the civil authorities in the Penzance District in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1860. By the time of the 1901 Census of England & Wales the family were recorded living at 79 High Street, Penzance. Father William, (37), is recorded as both a Carpenter and an Employer. He is now shown as born Paul, Cornwall. Mother Mary J., (40), was born Penzance. Children still single and living at home are:- Edward J………aged 17….born Penzance…..Goldsmith William C……..aged 14….born Penzance Richard G……..aged 11….born Penzance Lilian P……….aged 7……born Penzance Thomas F……..aged 3……born Penzance Mary F………..aged 1……born Penzance (Note – the source I’m using has the surname transcribed as Hutchers. As most genealogy sites appear to have used the same commercial transcription this may still be common to them all.) The Hutchens family were still to be found at 79, High Street, Penzance, on the 1911 Census of England & Wales. Parents William, (48, Builder & Undertaker, working on own account, born Paul) and Mary Jane, (51, born Penzance), stated they have been married 28 years and the union has produced 7 children, of which 6 were then still alive. Still single and living at home are William Charles, (24, Assisting in the business), Thomas Franklin, (13) and Mary Frances, (11) – all born Penzance. The marriage of a William C. Hutchens to an Elizabeth E. Rodda was recorded in the civil registration district of Redruth in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1915. The birth of a Kathleen Ridington Hutchens, mothers’ maiden name Rodda, was registered with the civil authorities in the Penzance district in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1916. Contrary to what was written on the medal sellers site, I don't believe William was to be found on his grandfathers farm on the 1921 Census of England & Wales. I don’t subscribe so can’t check out the details, but there is a household recorded in the parish of Penzance that consists of:- Charles Hutchens, born Penzance c1885 Elizabeth Hutchens, born Helston c1884 Kathleen Hutchens, born Penzance c1916. This is the only instance of a Kathleen Hutchens born 1916 +/- 2 years on the 1921 Census, Also on this census William Hutchens, (born Cornwall c1863), Mary Jane Ladner Hutchens, (born Penzance c1860) and a Thomas “Kanklin” Hutchens, (born Penzance c1898), were recorded in a household in Penzance. There is a match for an 1886 born “William Hutchens” on the 1939 Register at the 4 “Laroveor” Terrace, Penzance, (which should be Taroveor Terrace as per @RFT) Others at the same address are:- E. Ellen Hutchens, born 1883. Kathleen Hutchens, born 1916. More details will be available with subscription access via either FindMyPast or Ancestry. While I’m coming across a memorial reference to a 71 year old William C Hutchens in the Cornish records who died in 1957, (unfortunately subscription access required), I’m struggling to find an associated civil death record in England & Wales. He also doesn’t appear to have a civil probate entry. Could be a clerical error, could be that he didn’t die in 1957, or could be that he was living outside mainland UK at the time of his death and had no estate that fell under UK law, (or simply had no estate). A lot of this could do with more vetting - there is an online family tree that had William Charles Hutchens as dieing in 1929 but that would be at odds with a 1931 issued invoice, if not the potential identification of him in the 1939 Register. According to his entry in the 1937 Probate Calendar it was a William Hutchens, (no middle name), who died on the 22nd June 1929 and he lived at 79 High Street, Penzance. I'm wondering if that is the father. Probate was granted to Edward John Hutchens, jeweller and optician. Cheers, Peter Edited 21 June by PRC 1]Typos and 2] More typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFT Posted 21 June Author Share Posted 21 June (edited) My thanks to Pat Atkins for the earlier contribution and also to Allan1892 for the intial link to the Hutchens/Peak marriage, not forgetting the excellent contribution by PRC. Turning to the PRC response - E J Hutchens was a long established family jewellers in Penzance. In the early-1980s, or thereabouts, the business was sold and restyled in another name which continues to this very day. John Peak was a well known and long established "Victorian" Painting & Decorating supply shop operating from Nos 4 & 5 Causewayhead, Penzance. If I correctly recall, the shop finally closed its doors in or about 1992. The Hutchens/Rodda connection appears to concur with an online family website - This very same site confirms Elizabeth Ellen Rodda (known as Ellen) was the wife of one William C Hutchens, born Penzance, 1884 (no evidence). However, Elizabeth Ellen (Rodda) "known as Ellen" was baptised at Gwinear, 9 Nov 1892. This is confirmed by reference to a transcription of Gwinear parish records. It also states her birth date, 28 June 1892, which doesn't appear to agree with her age in the 1939 Register. Further investigation required here. Most of this evening has been spent studying PRC's (Peter's) response and am exceeding grateful to you for this For my part, much more research needs to be done. I think the time has come to subscribe to FMP. Again, my thanks to all who contributed. Rob Edited 22 June by RFT Correction to text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan1892 Posted 22 June Share Posted 22 June 18 hours ago, PRC said: I’m struggling to find an associated civil death record in England & Wales. Registered and transcribed as Hotchens (images courtesy of Ancestry) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 22 June Share Posted 22 June 16 minutes ago, Allan1892 said: Registered and transcribed as Hotchens Sugar - I did a wildcard search for surname Hut* who died in England & Wales in 1957 but not Hot* - just goes to show there is always one more search that can be done Thanks for digging into that one Allan. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan1892 Posted 22 June Share Posted 22 June Not a problem Peter, after researching my family tree for 30 years, I'm used to mis spellings in the civil registrations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFT Posted 22 June Author Share Posted 22 June Thank you Peter and Allan1892 for your dedication to this research topic. I've managed to locate the correct Elizabeth Ellen (known as Ellen) Rodda, wife of William Charles Hutchens - Elizabeth Ellen Rodda, born 10 Nov 1882, baptised 8 Dec 1882, Helston, Cornwall, daughter of Joseph Billing (Rodda) "Sadler" and Emma Jane Rodda, of Helston. Regards Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFT Posted 22 June Author Share Posted 22 June Peter & Allan1892 - Elizabeth Ellen (Rodda) Hutchens death date would be good to know, providing you're not watching any tennis or football! Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 22 June Share Posted 22 June (edited) 9 minutes ago, RFT said: Elizabeth Ellen (Rodda) Hutchens death date would be good to know Most likely match is the death of an Elizabeth E. Hutchens, aged 78, that was recorded in the Penzance District in Q1 1961. Unfortunately the GRO website still doesn't cover that period, so can't readily check what the middle initial stood for. There is also no obvious civil probate. Cheers, Peter Edited 22 June by PRC Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFT Posted 22 June Author Share Posted 22 June Thanks again Peter. That must surely be the Elizabeth Ellen I'm looking for. It certainly gives me a good lead. Best regards Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan1892 Posted 22 June Share Posted 22 June Image courtesy of Ancestry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFT Posted 22 June Author Share Posted 22 June (edited) Thank you Allan1892. That's the lady. After leaving 4 Taroveor Terrace, Penzance, in the 1940s, the Hutchens family relocated to the row of terraced houses immedaitely to the east, Belgravia Street. Probate was granted to their daughter, Kathleen Ridington Hutchens. A Superb result. The source of this topic - A pair of medals issued to 47807, Pte W C Hutchens, Welsh Regt - Are winging their way to me as I write! I'm absolutely delighted to have them, they mean so very much to me. Charles Hutchens was the funeral director who laid to rest my maternal grandmother (1931) and paternal grandfather (1948). Latter having served with the RNAS & RAF in WW1 and immediately post-war (1919/20) on active service with 47 "A" Squadron RAF, South Russia (Russian Civil War). My thanks to all who contributed. Rob Edited 22 June by RFT Correction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now