German Naval officers in the Ottoman Service

[stevenbecker]

Mate, I see what you mean , only 17 names for Hilfsoffiziere, I have at lest 6, none are shown in the good book?

Fischer     Hilfsakaptlt Marine     Hilfsakaptlt (assistant captain) Quartermaster General QMG verfügung gestellt (made available)
Freese Johann (Johannes)    Hilfs-ObLtzS Marine    MMD (Military Mediterranean Division - Coal Supplies and Transport 
Keil    Hilfsakaptlt Marine     Hilfsakaptlt (assistant captain) seem berater ber kohlenabtseilg (Seems to be a consultant about coal separation) shown at the HQ zur verfügung gestellt (made available)
Striesow     HilfsLtzS Marine    shown ladungsoffz Djerablus Dett to (Tigris-Euphrates Flotila Det) with three Small motor boats and 20 crew  27-3-16 shown 1918
Tolk     HilfsLtzS Marine     (assistant lieutenant) außendienst (External sales) Quartermaster General QMG verfügung gestellt (made available) 10-17 
Tralow     Hilfs LtzS Marine    Hilsfaleiter u. dampferuhrung (Auxiliary conductor and steam heating) offz rang beigelegt (to officer rank) 5-11-16  att Baltzer's Transportabteilung 1918
 

Todays

Teintze    Beamt Stellvert Marine    Doimetscher (Interpreter) Beamt stellvert (Deputy civil servant) Halbflottillenarzt U Boat Halbflottille 1918    1917-18    (not identified)? Kaiserliche Marine Crew shown US National Archives online records of the German Navy Item 808 (check spelling not found in Ehrenrangliste der Kaiserlich Deutschen Marine)
* long shot as these men are not listed, but with the U Boats maybe?

Thiele possibly August    LtzS - ObLtzS Marine    Observer (Beobachter) Airforce German Naval Seaplane Group (GNSG) (Wasserfliegerabteilung) 5-15 SFS Chanak?    1915-    Kaiserliche Marine shown Gotha WD1 (236) with Jansen (P) attacked a British submarine (E 11) off San Stefano in the Sea of Marmara 9-8-15 possibly ditched in Gotha WD1 (236) with Jansen (P) and picked up by SMS Goeben after action in Black Sea near Zonguldak 8-1-16  (spelling in Ole Nikoljsen) 
* again another Flieger which we have so much trouble with?

Tutt Julius    Kapt (cvilian) Marine    interned ship "CHRISTIAN X" in Massawa or Ships Captain MV "Christian" in Massawa Red Sea    1914-15    Merchant Navy
* he is in the Ehrenrangliste or I think its him?

[Michael Lowrey]

Thiele. Most certainly not August Thiele. There‘s nothing in the Ehrenrangliste to show he was ever in theater or a pilot. He  stayed in the navy postwar and, per the 1926 Rangliste, wasn’t awarded any Ottoman (or Austrian) decorations during the war. He also didn't receive the naval aviator badge during the war.

None of the other Thiele or similar spellings listed in the Ehrenrangliste appear to be a match.

[Michael Lowrey]

Julius Tutt, born February 15, 1872, entered service October 1894, Kapitänleutnant der Reserve August 11, 1914. yes, he could have been the master (captain) of the steamer Christian X (4,956 grt, built 1912 as Fionia) with a naval reserve commission on the side. The large Hamburg-Amerika Linie steamer was laid up at Massawa in the Red Sea and eventually seized, with Tutt then becoming an Italian POW.

[stevenbecker]

Thanks Michael,

Todays,

Uthemann Walther    Kon-Admiral Dr Marine    Generalarzt Admiralarzt     unknown    (born 1863 died 11-3-44) Kaiserliche Marine Crew 1883 to Vz-Admiral 1920 awarded (Pre War) Ottoman Medijde Order later WWII Kriegsmarine Marinegeneraloberstabsarzt a.D 
* hard to read if in Turkey in the Ehrenrangliste

Wagner Kurt Albert    Kapt-Lt deR (ObLt) Marine    the Niedermayer-Hentig Expedition to Afghanistan German Afghan Mission 1915-16 in Mesopotania & Persia    1914-17    (born 1881 died ) Kaiserliche Marine Crew 1899 Mesopotamia from deutschen Handelsmarine (German merchant navy) made his escape from Kabul via Persia back to Turkey in 30-1-18

Waler Fredinand    ObLt deR (MA) Marine    Matrosenartillerie Abteilung Bosporus 1-15    1915-18    (born 1884 died ) Kaiserliche Marine Crew 1903 (check spelling not in Ehrenrangliste der Kaiserlich Deutschen Marine)

Wallau    Matser Gunner deR Marine    MMD (Military Mediterranean Division - Sdr-Kdo (Sonderkommando Türkei)     1915-    Kaiserliche Marine wrote about fighting at Dardanelles 1915 - "Two fights in the Dardanelles" by the reserve second-master gunner-denier Wallau then belonging to the special detachment in Turkey
* not sure on this man as he's not listed under that name in the Ehrenrangliste

[Michael Lowrey]

Wallau — what’s his actual rank? I doubt that it matters, as by the description, he looks to be enlisted.

Waler — no idea. I can’t find an obvious match in the Ehrenrangliste. Possible spelling issue though.

Walther Uthemann  — per the Ehrenrangliste, he wasn’t assigned to the theater during the war.

[stevenbecker]

Cheers,

Yes I had some problems with them, Wallau is most likely this man

Wallau Adam    Art-Matrose d.S I Marine     Artillerist der Seewehr I Sdr-Kdo (Sonderkommando Usedom) - Matrosenartillerie Coastal Artillery Fort Hamidie att Ottoman Batteries at Dardanelles 
Who was wounded during the British attack in March 1915

Todays

Waltzer    Kapt-Lt Marine    Commander (Euphrates Stamm Dett) 1917    1917-18    (not identified)? Kaiserliche Marine shown US National Archives online records of the German Navy Item 808
* got the same feeling the name misspelled?

Wolf (Wolff) K.    LtzS Marine    Schiff "General“ - German depot Ship "General" anchored at Kai of Karaköy during whole war    1915-    (not identified)?

Wustrau Harry    Schiffbaumeister Marine    Baurat für Schiffbau 25-6-17 - Techn berater d. koflug Baurat (technical consultant d. koflug building council) with (Tigris Kampf gruppe) 1918    1917-18    (not identified)? Kaiserliche Marine shown US National Archives online records of the German Navy Item 808

Zollitsch Fritz     FähnrichzS Marine    dan itibaren (from 1916)    1916-    (not identified)? (check spelling not shown in Ehrenrangliste der Kaiserlich Deutschen Marine)
 

[Michael Lowrey]

The issue with both Walter and Wolf is that they can be first or last names. One possibility for Walter misspelled as Waltzer would be:

 

 

[Michael Lowrey]

Okay found him:

Hermann Baltzer (note spelling), born October 9, 1888, Crew 1907, Kapitänleutnant August 20, 1917. Leader of the Stamm (originating) element of the Euphrates River detachment and a watch officer on Goeben from October or November 1917 to January 1918. Then Mittelmeer Division admiral staff officer and head of the transportation service to the end of the war.

Out of service November 24, 1919. German decoration in early 1918 is the EK2.

[stevenbecker]

Cheers Michael,

Near the end mostly odds and sods, most I could not read the details in the Ehrenrangliste, others while chasing down the WO's & Ings of U boats, not recorded of the Constantinople Flot and or anyone shown with an Ottoman award

Todays

Zschoche Walter    WO (LI) Marine    SMS Goeben (Yavuz) 3-16    1916-18    (born 1891 died ) Kaiserliche Marine Crew ? from SMS Thuringen to Turkey shown in Ehrenrangliste der Kaiserlich Deutschen Marine (check spelling page 1247)

Harder Arnold     WO (Ing) Marine    Ingenieurs-Aspirant Pola/Mittelmeer II Flotilla UB 44 lost on move to Constantinople Flotilla    1916-    (born 1892 at Kiel KIA 4-8-16) vermißt* at Otranto Straits disappeared in Aegean Sea on or after 4-8-16 (all hands lost) 19 dead also possibly by the torpedo boat HMS 368 (probably the French TB368) off Paxoi with a lance bomb 8-8-16 Kaiserliche Marine crew

Kohlhase Max    Zahlmeister Marine    depot Ship "General" 8-17 Sdr-Kdo (Sonderkommando Türkei)    1917-18    (born 1893 died ) Kaiserliche Marine crew from SMS Schleswig-Holstein 5-16 to SMS Grosser Kurfürst 6-17 to Turkey 8-17 see page 1487 of the Ehrenrangliste der Kaiserlich Deutschen Marine

Altvater Karl Otto    Kapt-Lt Marine    no details        (1885 at Hildesheim died 29-12-48) in Soviet Special POW Camp Nr. 2 Buchenwald from SMS Strasburg to U Boat school 7-17  awarded Hamburg Hanseatic Cross and EK II & EK I and Medal for Life Saving in Messina with Ottoman Silver Liakat medal and War Medal later WWII SS-Hauptsturmführer 
 

I found the Google Books for the Ehrenrangliste der Kaiserlich Deutschen Marine, which I could read 

but not one for the Army officers? Ehren-Rangliste des ehemaligen Deutsches Heeres

Is there such a book that we can read/look at for Army officer names?

Thanks for you help translating the old German and checking each name its cleared up many I thought would be lost.

[Michael Lowrey]

Walther Zschoche (note spelling of the first name), born March 23, 1891, entered service October 1911, looks like he made Marine-Ingenieuraspirant on September 25, 1915, then Westfalen to March 1916, then Goeben to the end of the war. Promoted to Marine-Ingenieur July 18, 1918. Out of service November 24, 1919.

Edited 10 August by Michael Lowrey

[Michael Lowrey]

Arnold Harder, born November 22, 1892, entered service October 1911, Marine-Ingenieuraspirant on September 25, 1915 (warrant officer rank and commissioned officer candidate, based upon Walther Zschoche and other entries in the Ehrenrangliste, had he lived, think Marine-Ingenieur July 18, 1918 as a possible date for being promoted to Marine-Ingenieur).  He was UB 44’s chief engineer at the time of her loss.

UB 44 sailed from Cattaro on August 4, 1916 for Constantinople. I’ve tracked down the August 8, 1916 incident between Corfu and Paxos. It's possible that UB 44 was sunk by a depth charge from the French torpedo boat No. 368 but that’s far from certain. The French armed auxiliary transport Miquelon was also involved. For one thing, UB 44 should have been further along in her voyage by that point.

[Michael Lowrey]

Max Kohlhase, born September 27, 1893, entered service April 1914. He’s with the 1st Marine Infantry Regiment to May 1916, then Schleswig-Holstein to May 1917, 1st Werfdivision June 1917, Grosser Kurfürst July 1917, 1st Werfdivision August 1917, then in theater to General September 1917, then with the Sonderkommando Türkei for the rest of the war.

Important: Max Kohlhase is only promoted to Marine-Zahlmeisteraspirant (warrant officer rank) on October 1, 1917. Out of service March 10, 1920. Charakter as Marine-Zahlmeister June 12, 1920. Died Ausgut 17, 1926.

[Michael Lowrey]

Karl Otto (or Karlotto) Altvater, born September 4, 1885, Crew 1902, Kapitänleutnant November 15, 1913, is this guy: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Otto_Altvater

A couple of points: I can find no evidence that he was ever in theater. His list of assignments in the Ehrenrangliste is on the Straßburg to the U-boat school and associated assignments in Germany. He stayed in the navy postwar (he reaches the rank of Kapitän zur See in 1929), so we have his decorations from the war. No Ottoman, Austrian, or Bulgarian awards are listed.

Also the SS rank you give is wrong. Hauptsturmführer is the SS equivalent of a Hauptmann. That’s an obvious problem, given his naval rank. Wikepedia has him as an Oberführer, kind of a senior colonel, which makes a lot more sense.

[Michael Lowrey]

On 07/08/2024 at 17:52, stevenbecker said:

I found the Google Books for the Ehrenrangliste der Kaiserlich Deutschen Marine, which I could read 

but not one for the Army officers? Ehren-Rangliste des ehemaligen Deutsches Heeres

Is there such a book that we can read/look at for Army officer names?

Thanks for you help translating the old German and checking each name its cleared up many I thought would be lost.

Yes, the Ehren-Rangliste des ehemaligen Deutsches Heeres is a thing. It‘s available (at least in the US) via Google Books: https://books.google.com/books/about/Ehren_Rangliste_des_ehemaligen_Deutschen.html?id=fwUFAAAAMAAJ

Also a Polish library had it available as a PDF at one point. It is helpful but nowhere as useful as the Ehrenrangliste der Kaiserlich Deutschen Marine. The naval version has many more details (first names, dates of birth) and is more complete.

 

[stevenbecker]

Cheers Mate,

Altvater is shown on other sites as;

09.11.1934: SS-Hauptscharführer
00.00.1936: Abteilungsdirektor, Luftfahrtgerätabteilung
09.11.1937: SS-Untersturmführer
20.04.1940: SS-Obersturmführer
09.11.1940: SS-Hauptsturmführer
20.04.1941: SS-Sturmbannführer
09.11.1941: SS-Obersturmbannführer
30.01.1942: SS-Standartenführer
00.00.1943: Vorsitzender, Geschäftsführung Luftgerätewerk Hakenfelde, Siemens & Halske AG and Siemens-Schuckert
09.11.1943: promoted to SS-Oberführer
09.11.1944: promoted to SS-Hauptsturmführer der Reserve
His eldest son born in 1910 served as Major in the Luftwaffe was KIA in 1942

The Ottoman award appears given in 1903 

His early career;

00.00.1902: Seekadett, Kaiserlichen Marine
Segelschulschiff 'Stein'
00.00.1903-00.00.1904: Fähnrich zur See, Marineschule Kiel
00.00.1904-00.00.1905: Grosser Kreuzer 'Vineta' then Panzerschiff 'Brandenburg'
00.00.1905: awarded the Südwest-Afrika Denkmünze
29.09.1905: promoted to Leutnant zur See
00.00.1905-00.00.1906: Adjutant Signal u. Funken u. 2. Torpedooffizier, Kleiner Kreuzer 'Frauenlob'
01.04.1907-00.00.1908: Wachoffizier, Segelschulschiff 'Stein'
30.03.1908: Oberleutnant zur See
00.00.1908: Wachoffizier, Grosser Kreuzer 'Victoria Louise'00.00.1909: Wachoffizier, Panzerschiff 'König Wilhelm'
01.10.1909: 2. Matrosen-Artillerie-Abteilung
15.11.1913: promoted to Kapitänleutnant
01.01.1921: promoted to Korvettenkapitän

The gap during WWI is now complete ( I hope), but I could not see how he gained his Ottoman awards, it now appears it was pre war, and he didn't have the War Medal?

[stevenbecker]

PS

Mate,

Sorry I am not smart enough to see whats in these books shown Google Books: https://books.google.com/books/about/Ehren_Rangliste_des_ehemaligen_Deutschen.html?id=fwUFAAAAMAAJ

So we go back to the old way, of me giving names, and others trying to find them, not what I wanted, but I am stuck.

I'll start another comment with Army names I can't find, most I'd say are possibly spelled wrong, but it par for the course in this game.

Edited 10 August by stevenbecker

[Michael Lowrey]

10 minutes ago, stevenbecker said:

PS

Mate,

Sorry I am not smart enough to see whats in these books shown Google Books: https://books.google.com/books/about/Ehren_Rangliste_des_ehemaligen_Deutschen.html?id=fwUFAAAAMAAJ

So we go back to the old way, of me giving names, and others trying to find them, not what I wanted, but I am stuck.

I'll start another comment with Army names I can't find, most I'd say are possibly spelled wrong, but it par for the course in this game.

See where it says (at least for me, in the US) "Read Ebook" -- put your mouse on that and it will give you a box, where one of the options is to download a PDF of the book.

[Michael Lowrey]

What's the reference to On Karl Otto Altvater receiving Ottoman awards.  The 1914 Rangliste does not show him having been awarded any decorations, be it German or otherwise.

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

 

Altvater, Karl Otto (SS-Oberführer)

Date of birth:

September 4th, 1885 (Hildesheim)

Date of death:

December 29th, 1948 (Soviet Special POW Camp Nr. 2, Buchenwald)

Service number:

SS-Nr.: 244.042 // NSDAP-Nr.: 3.075.910

Nationality:

German

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

The documents given so kindly by Weigon threw up something I could not find

Maybe you will have better luck

abends aus beirut ausgelaufen Lt liebenschuetz and heizer Ruegemer wurden krankheitshalber in beirut ausgewchifft

Google translate gives

Leaving Beirut in the evening Lt Lovenschuetz and Heizer Ruegemer were disembarked in Beirut due to illness

Both names are not mentioned in the Geheime Marine Verlustliste, is there a spelling error

No I didn't use google translate for liebenschuetz 

[Michael Lowrey]

The “Liebenschuetz” would be:

Erich Liebenschütz, born July 31, 1894, Crew 1914, Leutnant zur See July 13, 1916, Rheinland to February 1918, then submarine school, then on UB 51 (in theater) and then UC 101 (a new boat that was fitting out for service in the Med). I'm presuming the reference is to UB 51 putting in to Beirut on May 21 and May 22, 1918.

Out of service November 24, 1919. Charakter as Oberleutnant zur See January 16, 1921. German decorations in early 1918 are the EK2 and Hamburg’s Hanseatic Cross.

 

And it would be “ausgeschifft” not “ausgewchifft.”

Edited 18 August by Michael Lowrey

[Michael Lowrey]

Kurt Wagner, born March 30, 1881, entered service April 10, 1899, Kapitänleutnant der Reserve March 16, 1916 but backdated in July 1918 to November 19, 1914. Afghanistan expedition to March 1918, then Mittelmeer Division to the end of the war.

Out of service January 21, 1920. German decorations in early 1918 are the EK1 and the Landwehrdienstauszeichnung 2nd Class.

[stevenbecker]

Thanks Mate,

I take it you also can't read the KTB on U 38 to see what happened to those two men?

Wigeon mentioned that

Burkschat

 The KTB for the period 13-7-16 to 1-8-16 shows U-38  at Constantinopel undergoing repair work and fitting out, so not a loss on operations during this period and I can not find any mention of him becoming a casualty in the KTB.

 Storkel.

Unfortunately the KTB entry for 10-9-16 is handwritten, it might be legible in the original but not in a badly microfilmed copy which was then digitized in a rather strange way. 

So a dead end for our end

[Michael Lowrey]

I might be able to read the KTB, it's just that I have them on microfilm, and don't have a microfilm reader, so have to go down to the local university library and use theirs. Neither case happened while on patrol.

[stevenbecker]

No worries, thanks any way.

I just wondered if you was doing the same to the U Boat site, like you did for the WWII area, listing the known losses to each boat from all causes.