Strawberryvic Posted 3 July Share Posted 3 July Hi everyone, I have been sent some photos of what could be my grandfather, or possibly his brother(s) as there is some confusion. I have no idea what the uniforms or badges etc. are for any of them. For context, my grandfather was born in 1900 so maybe only just about qualified for WW1, but I do know for sure that two of his brothers fought (and died) in WW1. I would really like to know the regiments associated with these uniforms so that I can work out who's who! This would mean a lot to me - thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 3 July Share Posted 3 July The first image shows the shoulder titles of the 18th Hussars, and I think the collar dogs match. I think that the collar dogs for he third photo are the same. The cap badge in the second photo might be the same. Lanyards on the right side might suggest service after 1920, or maybe not. Let's see what @FROGSMILE has to say. If you can post the names of the casualties especially, that would help confirm regimental details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strawberryvic Posted 3 July Author Share Posted 3 July 5 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: The first image shows the shoulder titles of the 18th Hussars, and I think the collar dogs match. I think that the collar dogs for he third photo are the same. The cap badge in the second photo might be the same. Lanyards on the right side might suggest service after 1920, or maybe not. Let's see what @FROGSMILE has to say. If you can post the names of the casualties especially, that would help confirm regimental details. Thanks so much for the quick reply Dai Bach! One of the brothers was Harry Keep, and it looks like he died in 1914 so probably not in the photos. The other was (I think) Albert Keep, whereas my grandfather was Alfred R Keep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 3 July Share Posted 3 July 15 minutes ago, Strawberryvic said: Thanks so much for the quick reply Dai Bach! One of the brothers was Harry Keep, and it looks like he died in 1914 so probably not in the photos. The other was (I think) Albert Keep, whereas my grandfather was Alfred R Keep. OK, so that means that Harry was: Private ERNEST HARRY KEEP Service Number: 9698 Royal Berkshire Regiment, 2nd Bn. Date of Death Died 16 December 1914 Buried at WIMEREUX COMMUNAL CEMETERY I. C. 6A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 3 July Share Posted 3 July 45 minutes ago, Strawberryvic said: The other was (I think) Albert Keep, whereas my grandfather was Alfred R Keep. Theres an Albert Richard Keep of the 18th Hussars who attested August 1919 aged 18yrs 9mths so born 1900 (born Aston Tarrold, Wallingford, Berks) married Lina Gosden. Source is Tank Corps Enlistments Register on Findmypast. Service number 51561 then Army Number 537520. His service record should have survived and be one of Those that is being transferred from the Ministry of Defence to the National Archives. Can you confirm if this is your GU or GF ? Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 3 July Share Posted 3 July (edited) The cwgc have an Albert Keep (aged 31) who died 23/7/16 and served with the Royal Sussex Regiment and is commemorated on Thiepval Memorial (so no known grave). If you are correct in saying Alfred was the only survivor of the 3 then this would rule out the Albert suggested by Charlie purely on him not being a casualty. Do either ‘Letcombe Regis, Wantage, Berks’ or ‘Durnford House, Cuckfield, Sussex’ ring any bells? This particular Albert was married to Mrs. M.E. Keep. Simon Addition:- anybody recognise the flash on the Wolseley Helmet? Edited 3 July by mancpal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 3 July Share Posted 3 July (edited) 18 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: The first image shows the shoulder titles of the 18th Hussars, and I think the collar dogs match. I think that the collar dogs for he third photo are the same. The cap badge in the second photo might be the same. Lanyards on the right side might suggest service after 1920, or maybe not. Let's see what @FROGSMILE has to say. If you can post the names of the casualties especially, that would help confirm regimental details. Yes he’s 18th (Queen Mary’s Own) Hussars in all three photos Dai, and all the items of uniform and insignia chime with that. Collar badges were often worn by regular cavalry and auxiliaries of the yeomanry, even though they were not officially authorised for service dress until the 1920s. Dress features include the plain ball buttons worn by hussars of cavalry of the line plus those yeomanry units styled as hussars. The lanyards position seems likely to have been a regimental dress idiosyncrasy, but I do not know for sure. I suspect that he might’ve served in a hot climate like India, or Egypt, Mesopotamia, etc. and then been combed out into the infantry at one of several points during the war when mounted units were weeded in order to feed the voracious requirements of the infantry. That was especially so following particular periods of attrition such as the Somme in 1916, Passchendaele in 1917, and the Somme again from the Spring onward in 1918. See also: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/61769/61769-h/61769-h.htm Pictures from public domain courtesy of image search engine. Edited 4 July by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caladonia Posted 3 July Share Posted 3 July Hello mancpal The helmet flash is also that worn by the 18th Hussars, yellow/mid blue, I think it was adopted during the Boer War, here's a good link for reference. Anglo Boer War - Helmet flashes-Lancashire Regts serving in 2nd Boer War - Boer War Forum William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 3 July Share Posted 3 July 1 hour ago, charlie962 said: Theres an Albert Richard Keep of the 18th Hussars who attested August 1919 aged 18yrs 9mths so born 1900 (born Aston Tarrold, Wallingford, Berks) married Lina Gosden. Source is Tank Corps Enlistments Register on Findmypast. Service number 51561 then Army Number 537520. His service record should have survived and be one of Those that is being transferred from the Ministry of Defence to the National Archives. The records do seem to have survived due to having been in the custody of the MOD until recently. The number however is different. 537520 KEEP AR 1900-11-06 https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/about/our-role/plans-policies-performance-and-projects/our-projects/ministry-of-defence-service-records/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strawberryvic Posted 3 July Author Share Posted 3 July (edited) Thanks all! My Grandfather was ALFRED RICHARD KEEP and he was born in 1900 in Aston Tirrold, married Lina Gosden, so this is definitely the person named above. This is really helpful info about his regiment etc. and I'm very grateful to everyone for helping to clarify. Edited 3 July by Strawberryvic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 4 July Share Posted 4 July 6 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: The number however is different. That's the same Army Number I quoted above. I presume the Tank Corps Enlistments Register was wrong written up as Albert and should read Alfred. Service summary Attested 1919 as a Regular. 7 years Colour/5 years Reserve service. Re-attested 1931 for 4 more years in Section D Reserve. Discharged 1935. Source Tank Corps Enlistments on Findmypast https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM%2FTANK%2F042843&sourcecategory=armed+forces+%26+conflict&sid=998&lastname=keep&soldiernumber=537520&keywordsplace_proximity=5&sourcecountry=great+britain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 4 July Share Posted 4 July (edited) Thanks Charlie. Enlisted right at the end of the war and so hence still wearing 18th Hussars insignia then. Like many (but not all) the line cavalry regiments the 18th merged with another cavalry unit to reduce the overall headcount without losing titles. Nicknamed a process of creating “vulgar fractions” by those who were not so treated, in the case of the 18th Hussars (Queen Mary’s Own) they merged with the 13th Hussars** in 1922 to create the 13th/18th Royal Hussars. Some units reduced by not replacing men who had completed their service engagement and then when down to a certain strength combining. In other cases the unit overseas remained at a reasonably good operational strength, perhaps just reducing by a squadron, and then a unit from home reduced to just a rump came out to join them as a squadron. In the case of the 13th they remained at a good strength and were then joined by just a single squadron from the much reduced 18th. Initially original insignia and identity was retained to allow gradual settling in and lessen any sense of winners and losers, but once the new regiment identified precisely which aspects of each units historical dress it would retain, new insignia was designed and issued and the revised identity adopted by all. The new badge for the regiment was modernistic and starkly different from those that went before. It seems likely our subject was transferred to the Tank Corps during preparation for the merger and sent to join B.A.R. - presumably British Army [of the] Rhine in the German occupation zone (edit: actually B Army Reserve - see following post below). ** this was the regiment of Lord Baden Powell, an influential man who established the first British ‘cavalry school’ to teach mounted tactical techniques and field craft and, perhaps more famously, established the Boy Scout movement that influenced similar organisations throughout the world. NB. The 18th went through no less than three changes of title between 1918 and 1922 due to changes in the Royal status of Mary of Teck. Pictures from public domain via online search engine. Edited 4 July by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 4 July Share Posted 4 July 47 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: join B.A.R. I took that to be his transfer to 'B' Army Reserve, upon complétion of 7 years Colour service. 49 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: creating “vulgar fractions” Army humour ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 4 July Share Posted 4 July 26 minutes ago, charlie962 said: I took that to be his transfer to 'B' Army Reserve, upon complétion of 7 years Colour service. I’m sure you must be right and I misinterpreted it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 4 July Share Posted 4 July 4 hours ago, charlie962 said: That's the same Army Number I quoted above So it is, my apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 5 July Share Posted 5 July (edited) They are post WW1 photos. Whilst the regt amalgamated in 1922 the Sqn identity and dress distinctions remained in place after 1922 until circa 1929. The warm weather photo would be circa 1920 when the regt was in India. (see attached). Everything about the photos shout 1920 era photos to me just before amalgamation. After 1922 the s/t but not the sqn cap bagdes changed to 13/18th. In 1929 the cap badge and collars in the '5 bar gate' design were sealed and worn across the regiment. Edited 5 July by max7474 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strawberryvic Posted 5 July Author Share Posted 5 July 36 minutes ago, max7474 said: They are post WW1 photos. Whilst the regt amalgamated in 1922 the Sqn identity and dress distinctions remained in place after 1922 until circa 1929. The warm weather photo would be circa 1920 when the regt was in India. (see attached). Everything about the photos shout 1920 era photos to me just before amalgamation. After 1922 the s/t but not the sqn cap bagdes changed to 13/18th. In 1929 the cap badge and collars in the '5 bar gate' design were sealed and worn across the regiment. Thanks so much for this information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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