war office weekly casualty lists issue date and p o w question

[weshallremember]

hello

can anyone tell me if there is a weekly casualty list

which would refer to the welsh regiment  casualties for the 9th-10th of April  1918  

if so what date or issue was it published in

also is there anyway to find out how many of the 18th  welsh regiment were captured  on the above dates

many thanks

trevor

[brianmorris547]

Trevor

Pte Bentley would have been posted as Wounded and Missing on the WOCLs. It normally took 4 to 6 weeks from the event to the WOCL. Someone obviously saw him wounded and this is why he would be in the WOCLs as Wounded and Missing. His relative enquired with the ICRC and the card shows Officially Listed as Wounded and Missing. There was a negative reply, meaning that they had no record that he was taken prisoner. 

Brian

EDIT. I've linked in the original post. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/311797-help-with-location-of-the-18th-welsh-battalion-on-the-9th-april-1918/#comment-3310294

 

Edited 7 July by brianmorris547

[weshallremember]

been looking through the war office lists

for hours

but can't find him 

[PRC]

CWGC are showing 23 fatalities for the 18th Battalion, Welsh Regiment for the period 9th-10th April 1918, including three officers. I haven't checked to see if they were all killed in action but seems likely.

As the British Newspaper Archive also has the British Weekly Casualty Lists I use the search engine on their website to narrow down the specific weekly edition, and then check that on the National Library of Scotland website. Howveer a variety of searches using the most unusual names from CWGC, with and without their service number or just service number plus welsh, failed to turn up a single match. That could just be the ancient software on the British Newpaper Archive picking up the original information and presenting it as wingdings - or it could be that the relevant lists are just not there.

Could be worthwhile adding those names to the one you are doing a search for - makes the needle you need to find in the haystack a little bit bigger

When I tried to do projects in the past looking at the butchers' bill for a unit and battle, my experience is that they are never all on one casualty list, and I have never once been able to reconcile to the "official" casualty totals - even the ones that appeared in post-war history's when you'd think the true state of affairs would be known.

As for prisoners - a quick dip into the International Commitee of the Red Cross Website for the surname Williams serving with the Welsh Regiment, (so just a few!), quickly turned up 13845 Private David James Williams. 'B' Company , captured 9th April 1918. The first report was received from Germans on the 12th June 1918 and given ICRC reference PA25575. The same page has 61257 Private William Rowland. If you scroll up and down from that page you may well find other individuals. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/1319256/698/25575/

I'm not suggesting it as a way to prepare a complete roll call of prisoners  - it's just the more names you have the more likely it is that you will identify the relevant official casualty list(s).

Cheers,
Peter

[weshallremember]

thanks Brian and Peter

but i think i will admit defeat in this search 

it was just reading that apparently most the regiment was wiped out during the first two hours and only 2 officers and 20 men made it out

  97 were listed as killed

 that's why i started thinking 

first      how many were in the regiment of the 18th welsh at the time and were all the companies A  B  C  D in that front line

second     how many ended up as  p o w s

third      what happened to the rest

 

Trevor

[charlie962]

Here are 3 men of the the 18th that ICRC have down as captured 10/4/18

Bell 61128

Duffy 61164 **

Dugdale 61165

Try a Cas List search for them ?

** see also under Daffy 61164 captured 9/4/18 !

Also:

Dowler 61161 taken 9/4/18

Duxbury 61167 taken 9/4/18

Groves 61193 taken 9/4/18

Halewood 61195 taken 9/4/18

Halter 61198 taken 11/4/18 (but card doesn't give bn?) -But he appears in a pow list in the Daily Casualty List published 14/9/18. That doesn't help you find others.

Edited 9 July by charlie962
Further names

[charlie962]

The men above I can find in pow repatriation lists but not in missing lists. NLS may be more complete than Findmypast that I'm using?

[charlie962]

This gives you a chunk of names for 9/4/18 using Findmypast indexing of ICRC records:

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?sourcecategory=armed+forces+%26+conflict&sid=998&keywords="09+apr+1918"+18th&regiment=welsh+regiment&datasetname=prisoners+of+war+1715-1945

Edited 9 July by charlie962

[PRC]

2 hours ago, weshallremember said:

it was just reading that apparently most the regiment was wiped out during the first two hours and only 2 officers and 20 men made it out

  97 were listed as killed

 that's why i started thinking 

first      how many were in the regiment of the 18th welsh at the time and were all the companies A  B  C  D in that front line

Likely that any draft of the War Diary was either destroyed or captured and so what was prepared may have been cobbled together early the next month. They were part of the 119th Brigade of the 40th Division, and while all the Division took quite a battering, it's likely that Brigade and Divisional War Diaries are likely to have survived. Brigade War Diaries are more likely to cover the daily strength returns for each unit that made up the Brigade and will include copies of operational orders and messages issued by Brigade Headquarters.

The 119th Brigade Headquarters War diary covering January to July 1918 can be found in the National Archive catalogue here:- https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14055172

Cheers,
Peter

[weshallremember]

hi Charlie

i have been looking at the NLS lists with no luck

unfortunately  i am not a member of fmp

but thanks for looking

trevor

[weshallremember]

hi Peter

i have looked at the brigade diaries the battalion and the general staff

with no luck on finding battalion size at the time

or which companies were where

thanks anyway

Trevor

 

[brianmorris547]

This is from the April 1918 WD of 40 Div Adjutant and Quarter-Master General and shows the casualties for that Action. On the following pages the Officer Casualties of the Division are named. 

Pte Bentley must have been on a WOCL before August 1918 since that is when the ICRC check was made. EDIT I do not know if the War Office wrote to his wife to inform her that he was officially W & M before the list was prepared.

TNA WO 95/2594 via Ancestry

Brian

 

Edited 9 July by brianmorris547

[weshallremember]

hi Brian

yes i did see this in the diaries

i will have one last look at the casualty lists later because its easy to miss stuff

especially with the amount of info on each page

thanks

Trevor

[weshallremember]

with thanks to war office casualty lists

hooray !!!!!!!

found him Bentley F H 290718

casualty list date 18th June 1918

Edited 11 July by weshallremember
name addition

[brianmorris547]

Trevor

Well done. 10/04/1918 was a Wednesday and his Unit would have to submit a Field Return to the Adjutant General's Office on Sunday (in this case 14/04/1918). It normally took 4 to 6 weeks for wounded to be named in the WOCLs but Wounded and Missing must have taken longer. 

The list will not just be for 18 Bn. It will include all Bns of the Regt but I suspect most will be 18 Bn. You will have to compare the names to the Medal Rolls or SDGW. I looked at 61158 William Dean who was from Bolton. His papers show 18 Bn Missing 09/04/1918. 

TNA WO 363 via Ancestry

Brian

[weshallremember]

going up and down the red cross pow lists

found 20 from 18th welsh

A  coy  9 captured 

b  coy 1 captured   

c coy  3  captured

d coy  7 captured 

all listed as captured on the 9th leventie or fleurbaix  line

do the red cross pages roughly run in date order??????

because i expected to find more

at least i know  LANCE / CPL   BENTLEY from  C coy was in that area of the front line at the start

i still feel like he was wounded/missing  on the 9th

but if he was actually wounded on the 10th he would have surely been north of the river lys 

because that's where the German's were by pm on the 9th  

if reports are to be believed and only 2 officers and 20 men got out on the 9th

the 72 men on the  C W G C could not have been killed on the 13th 

NO PROOF BUT

 like SOLDIER BENTLEY  i think that date was most likely when they were officially recorded  when the  battle died down

your thoughts please right or wrong??????????

Trevor

[charlie962]

Some C Company 18th Seaforths taken 9/4/18 per ICRC.

You will find that their place of capture is not always consistent when you look at the PA backing sheets. Eg William Groves. 

Note also the wide range of PA numbers. ie no real pattern. 

[weshallremember]

brilliant

blimey i have started something now

so far found 40 P O W S

many thanks Charlie

Edited 12 July by weshallremember

[weshallremember]

hello all

i have found about 80 now

found some P A SHEETS with these names on the IRCC website 

but having problems finding the white index cards for the them ?????????

Pawell     Richard   A coy

Evans     William    D  coy

 

202843  Thomas  T

8812  Lyons   T

54269   Phillips W

28456   Evans  W

45762   Rowlands  A  C

28982   Edwards   E

26391 Evans William J

34521  Harris T

55960  Hunt   G T      A  coy

Howells David j   A coy

Evans Edward   B  coy

Thomson Harold James  D  coy 

Evans Daniel  A  coy

Jackson Walter  A coy

 

   

Trevor

 

  

 

Edited 14 July by weshallremember
update

[charlie962]

8 hours ago, weshallremember said:

55956    Grocock  C H 

Only card I found is this, Crocock, which is his repatriation

[charlie962]

8 hours ago, weshallremember said:

23726   Dacey John 

Should be 28726.

There's,a second card with a different number but same Name and HQ Company??

8 hours ago, weshallremember said:

Broad Bertie  Cpl   D coy 

[charlie962]

8 hours ago, weshallremember said:

Thomas Charles Stanley 

Is this your man?

[weshallremember]

very many thanks Charlie

updated the list above for index cards not found for now

there will be more later 

at the moment i have found 122  with their index cards

still looking!!!!!!!!

regards

Trevor

 

 

[weshallremember]

more on P A FORMS but white index cards i can not find

27756     Blake  John

27507    Burgham William 

25494    Burrows David c

55968   Hearty Alfred a

51837   Mckay  Albert

54269    Phillips  W

60854    Digance  Arthur G

25806   Edwards  Robert H

65192   Harris Walter B

46622 Harris  William j

65222  Lloyd  William

 many thanks

TREVOR

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, weshallremember said:

27756     Blake  John

See under Black.