Harbourart Posted 7 July Share Posted 7 July (edited) I am currently trying to piece together the service history of Edward Rayns. I know Edward was born 9 February 1899 in Manchester, on the 1911 census he was still in Manchester with his parents and 1939 census he was in Brimingham. I also know Edward served as a dispatch rider with Army Service Corps Mechanical Transport. I have a Medal Roll Card from TNA for an Edward Rayns who was an Acting Sergeant, service number M/295606. I also have a Short Service Attestation from TNA for an Edward Rayns dated 18th February 1917 who was living at 70 Rossington Rd, Nottingham and is 17 years 255 days old (my Edward would have been 18 years 9 days old when form signed). I can find no other records for another Edward Rayns. Could it be possible these two records are for my Edward or is this a different man? If it is the same man why would Edward travel from Manchester to Nottingham to enlist and give a different DoB to calculate his age? Another option could be my Edward moved to Nottingham between 1911 and 1917 but I can find no evidence of this? Any opinions on this would be greatly appreciated. Cheers, Pete Image courtesy TNA Image courtesy TNA Image courtesy Ancestry Edited 23 July by Harbourart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 21 July Share Posted 21 July The 1911 census has Edward Rayns as the third of six children. His father is William Charles, his mother is Lacy Pears. His mother comes from the village of Hose in Leicestershire, close to Melton Mowbray. All the children were born in Manchester. His father is the fire brigade station officer. The family live on premises. http://www.firestations.org.uk/Station_Details.php?stn=Mill Street (Manchester) old fire station site&lat=53.477351&lon=-2.193082 The death of an Edward Rayns, born 9 Feb 1899, was registered in Stafford in January 2005. The 1911 census has Teddy Rayns, 10 years old, son of Edward senior. His age on the 1921 census implies he was born September 1900. He was born in Sneinton, Nottinghamshire. His death in 2Q 1928 is registered in Nottingham. These are two different people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbourart Posted 21 July Author Share Posted 21 July 52 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said: These are two different people. Thank you for the confirmation Keith. I have searched TNA and can find no records for my Edward? Know he was a dispatch rider with ASC attached to 43rd Brigade RGA. Do you have any suggestions of where I could search now? Cheers, Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 21 July Share Posted 21 July Whilst there is the medal index card and service record for Teddy Rayns from Nottinghamshire (1900-1928), I have not seen anything to suggest that records for Edward Rayns (1899-2005) have been put in the public domain. It would appear that Teddy Rayns from Nottinghamshire (1900-1928) extended his military service with the Sherwood Foresters. Name E Rayns Birth Date 26 Sep 1900 Service Number 4966072 Rank Army Other Ranks, Discharges for 1921-1939 Reference Number ADT000520793 I would presume that the military service of was performed exclusively at home, given the absence of a campaign medal index card, or a WFA pension index card. 19 minutes ago, Harbourart said: Do you have any suggestions of where I could search now? I cannot suggest any further avenues of research, bearing in mind what has been already explored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbourart Posted 21 July Author Share Posted 21 July (edited) On 21/07/2024 at 10:32, Keith_history_buff said: I would presume that the military service of was performed exclusively at home, given the absence of a campaign medal index card, or a WFA pension index card. Hi Keith, Thanks again for your reply. I visited Edward in November 2004 and he told me that he enlisted with ASC Mech Transport. After training he was made acting sergeant and sent to Rouen. He was later attached to 43rd Brigade Royal Garrison Artillery as a dispatch rider at Passchendaele, Messines, and Ypres. When the war ended he stayed in France serving with the army of occupation for a while. He received the BWM and VM plus a Legion d'Honneur when he was 100 years old. On Ancestry the attestation form details for Teddy from Nottingham show his father as William Charles Ragner (Misspelt Rayns?) same as my Edward, coincidence? The MiC for Teddy show him also as an acting sergeant, another coincidence? There are no other MiC's that I can find on TNA or any other information or records on the internet. I'm now completely stumped where I can find any conformation Edward actually served! Confused, Pete Image courtesy Ancestry Edited 23 July by Harbourart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 21 July Share Posted 21 July Hi Pete, You may want to put in a request to TNA, and apply for the service record, quoting the barcode reference number ending 793. Could it be that both men's records have been filed together in error? I came across this with WO 339/5501. Not only did it contain the details of Harry Gould CHAPMAN, but also Henry Grafton CHAPMAN too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbourart Posted 21 July Author Share Posted 21 July 21 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said: You may want to put in a request to TNA, and apply for the service record, quoting the barcode reference number ending 793. Could it be that both men's records have been filed together in error? Thanks again Keith, I will try that with all my fingers crossed. Hopeful, Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 23 July Share Posted 23 July (edited) On 21/07/2024 at 10:32, Keith_history_buff said: I would presume that the military service of was performed exclusively at home, given the absence of a campaign medal index card, or a WFA pension index card. Not that this is really adding much here [and this might just be a construction/interpretation of sentence issue ] but for general clarity: Overseas Service was not an absolute pre-requisite for a man's disability and/or dependant's(s') pension record(s) - wartime Home Service alone might be sufficient. M Edited 23 July by Matlock1418 add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 23 July Admin Share Posted 23 July On 22/07/2024 at 00:15, Harbourart said: I visited Edward in November 2004 and he told me that he enlisted with ASC Mech Transport. After training he was made acting sergeant and sent to Rouen. He was later attached to 43rd Brigade Royal Garrison Artillery as a dispatch rider at Passchendaele, Messines, and Ypres. When the war ended he stayed in France serving with the army of occupation for a while. He received the BWM and VM plus a Legion d'Honneur when he was 100 years old. The service record of M/295606 Rayns (as observed also spelt as Raynes and indexed as such on FMP) shows:- He attested on the 16 October 1916 in Nottingham under the extended Derby or Group Scheme specifically created for young men born in 1899. He gave his age as seventeen years and 255 days. On attestation he was pronounced fit A4, i.e. he would be A1 on attaining the age of eighteen. He was mobilised on the 14th February 1917 and posted to the ASC Mechanical Transport at Grove Park on the 15th February 1917; he was now eighteen (and had he not previously attested liable for conscription under the Military Service Act). He remained on Home service and trained as a 'Fitter Learner" ability "Fair" in various ASC workshops. He had qualified as a "Fitter 2" on the 22nd February 1918 This soldier did not therefore serve in any capacity at Messines or Third Ypres, nor was he employed as a despatch rider, though of course he may have ridden a motorbike in for repair. Nor was he attached to RGA but his entire service was in the RASC with an initial attachment to the RAMC. On the 18th April 1918 he was appointed A/Sjt (with Pay). On the 19th April 1918 in the aftermath of the German Spring Offensive when he was posted to the BEF, embarking Portsmouth on the 20th and arriving at Rouen on the 22nd April 1918. His initial posting to the BEF was to 43rd Motor Ambulance Convoy. (43 RGA ?) as A/Sjt but on the 14th June 1918 he reverted to Private at his own request. On the 6th August he was posted to 491 MT Company ASC; later that month to 1st Army Troops and 611 Company and on 15th September 363 Company. On the 3rd May 1919 he is shown as serving with 565 MT Company at Cologne (Army of Occupation) form where he was granted leave to the UK in September 1919. It appears he remained in with the BEF and the Army of Occupation until posted to the Class Z Reserve on the 24th November 1919. His discharge papers showed a suitable civilian occupation to be 'mechanic'.He gave his address on Discharge as (?Hosp?) Melton Mowbray,Leicester He was awarded the British War Medal and Victory Medal. He claimed no disability or injury due to his war service. On the 18th February 1922 he applied to join the RAF, it is not clear on the extant records whether or not this application was successful. I can't tell you if this man is the Edward Rayns you seek. I can tell you the attestation form and medal index card (please acknowledge sources) refer to the same man. That said there. are many anomalies and 'near misses in his reported account as you describe above. I can only find one, born 1900 in the 1921 Census, he appears to have returned to live with his parents Edward and Emmeline at 57 Clarence Street Nottingham he is now working as a Carter. In 1911 (birthdate 1901) Teddy Rayns is living with his parents Edward and Emma at 44 Clarence Street Nottingham. He is not shown on the 1918 Electoral Roll though Edward and Emma are,, living at number 57. The Edward Rayns who apparently joined the 7th Battalion Sherwood Foresters (TA) post war was summonsed for not attending annual camp as reported in the Nottingham Evening Post January 25 1926 when his address was given as 10 Richmond Street Colwick Street. The 1918 AVL for Nottingham shows James Edward Rayns 11 Hawksworth Terrace as 29605 Sherwood Foresters. He was still there in 1939. The Electoral Rolls 1925/6 for Nottingham show an Edward Rayns residing at 13 Ebeneezer Square. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 23 July Share Posted 23 July I didn't look at the record when I posted. His attestation has the address of Rossington Road, with "Nottingham" stamped on it. This differs from the "Name and Address of Next Of Kin" His father's address is given as Church Walk, Hose, Melton Mowbray as of 24 January 1917 when he was medically examined at Nottingham. This is faint, but the FMP images are clearer than those of the Ancestry "burnt records". I presume there is a link with the maternal side of the family. The same address is also recorded vertically on the left side of his B.103 form. "Hose, Melton Mowbray" is recorded on his form Z.22 The FMP summary records his birth place as Manchester. His B.178 records his birth place as Manchester. Confusingly, his ASC bearer despatched to join Motor Transport memo dated February 1917 has the address of 76 Rossington Road, Sneinton Dale, Nottingham. Google tells me these two locations are about 20 miles apart. A quick search on Fold3 failed to return anyone named Edward Rayns in the Royal Air Force, but I do not know the basis of their record set, and whether interwar airmen would be covered or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 23 July Share Posted 23 July Screenshot of one page of the service record Pete @Harbourart, every time you post an image, it has to be credited, in accordance with the terms that you sign up for with Ancestry or FMP. In principle, if a person sees something great, they sign up for the service, and it's a win-win for everyone. Image courtesy FindMyPast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 23 July Share Posted 23 July There is the following airman, but he enlisted later Service number batch info 505001 to 549999 Oct 1925 Civilians 550000 to 558000 554027 Sep 1934 Boy entrants 558001 to 558503 May 1927 Section II, Class “E” Reserve Meteorologists 558504 to 559000 Not allotted 559001 to 559292 Jun 1926 Section II, Class “E” Reserve - Imperial Airways 559293 to 560000 Not allotted 560001 to 579999 Jan 1926 Aircraft Apprentices 580000 to 581786 Aug 1935 Direct Entry Airmen Pilots, Observers and Cadets 581787 to 581999 Not allotted 582000 to 589999 Aug 1944 Aircraft Apprentices 590000 Not allotted 590001 to 594261 Oct 1925 Apprentice Clerks 594262 to 594300 Not allotted 594301 to 599999 596003 Oct 1964 Administrative Apprentices 600000 to 605364 604257 Aug 1931 Special Reserve See the foot of the post for the source of this data Full Name Rayne, Edward Information They enlisted as an 'Aircraft Apprentice'. They joined after January 1926. Service Number 578468 Service Royal Air Force Archive Reference AIR 78 131 2 Transcription courtesy Fold3 The RAF info is spliced from two sources. The first is the cards in AIR 78. Paradoxically, it was not possible to access them via The National Archives a while back, yet the FWR info was appearing free of charge on their website. The second source of info is likewise free to access, and located below and "elsewhere". https://www.ab-ix.co.uk/pdfs/rfc_raf.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbourart Posted 23 July Author Share Posted 23 July 5 hours ago, Matlock1418 said: Not that this is really adding much here [and this might just be a construction/interpretation of sentence issue ] but for general clarity: Overseas Service was not an absolute pre-requisite for a man's disability and/or dependant's(s') pension record(s) - wartime Home Service alone might be sufficient. M Thanks for the clarity Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbourart Posted 23 July Author Share Posted 23 July (edited) 3 hours ago, kenf48 said: In 1911 (birthdate 1901) Teddy Rayns is living with his parents Edward and Emma at 44 Clarence Street Nottingham. He is not shown on the 1918 Electoral Roll though Edward and Emma are,, living at number 57. Thanks Ken for the info, which would be fantastic for my research. But as many of the details match with my Edward I believe this could a different man? Could there be two Edward Rayns, one from Manchester and one from Nottingham, and their documents mistakenly filed together? When I visited Edward in 2004 he told me he served in France and had two medals from the war, this information also mentioned in Max Arthur's Last Post book. Edited 23 July by Harbourart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbourart Posted 23 July Author Share Posted 23 July 1 hour ago, Keith_history_buff said: I didn't look at the record when I posted. His attestation has the address of Rossington Road Hi Keith, thank you for more great information which coincides with my Edward. Maybe it is the same man after all as his parents were married in Hose? Maybe his family moved from Manchester between 1911 where he is listed on census in Manchester and 1917? 1 hour ago, Keith_history_buff said: Pete @Harbourart, every time you post an image, it has to be credited Sorry Keith I have updated the original post with credits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbourart Posted 23 July Author Share Posted 23 July 1 hour ago, Keith_history_buff said: There is the following airman, but he enlisted later Hi Keith I think this would almost definitely be a different man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 23 July Share Posted 23 July Hi Pete, Quote I know Edward was born 9 February 1899 in Manchester Attestation for an Edward Rayns dated 18th February 1917 who was living at 70 Rossington Rd, Nottingham I can find no other records for another Edward Rayns. Could it be possible these two records are for my Edward or is this a different man? I looked to see if there was a man of this name in Manchester, and one in Nottingham. I found there were two different men, of a similar age. I recorded the parental names, and left it at that. Ken was more diligent. I belatedly took a peek at the service record. I am of the opinion that this record does relate to "your man", given that he was born in Manchester, and his mother came from Hose, Melton Mowbray, Leicestershire. What I will say is that you have posted from a phone. I never access documents via a phone, as it lacks the detail. By accessing the FMP images on a desktop, I have some challenging images, but I have been able to make out some detail. Thanks for the retrospective addition of the "image courtesy" credits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 23 July Share Posted 23 July (edited) 3 hours ago, kenf48 said: The 1918 AVL for Nottingham shows James Edward Rayns 11 Hawksworth Terrace as 29605 Sherwood Foresters. He was still there in 1939. James Edward RAYNS, 29605, Notts & Derby WFA/Fold3 pension records show he was discharged 22.11.18 and received a disability pension for an Amputation, Right LeftThigh Address: 11 Hawksworth Terrace, Hawksworth St, Nottingham. He was Married M Edited 23 July by Matlock1418 strike/correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbourart Posted 23 July Author Share Posted 23 July 16 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said: Ken was more diligent. I belatedly took a peek at the service record. I am of the opinion that this record does relate to "your man", given that he was born in Manchester, and his mother came from Hose, Melton Mowbray, Leicestershire. Hi Keith, so this could be the same man after all, I do hope so as I am getting more confused through more I read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbourart Posted 23 July Author Share Posted 23 July 19 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said: What I will say is that you have posted from a phone. I never access documents via a phone, as it lacks the detail. By accessing the FMP images on a desktop, I have some challenging images, but I have been able to make out some detail. I do tend to post from my phone but I also do most of my research on my laptop beforehand. 21 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said: Thanks for the retrospective addition of the "image courtesy" credits. No probs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbourart Posted 23 July Author Share Posted 23 July 9 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: James Edward RAYNS, 29605, Notts & Derby WFA/Fold3 pension records show he was discharged 22.11.18 and received a disability pension for an Amputation, Right Thigh Thanks Matlock1418 this is definitely a different man as my Edward had two legs in 2004 when I met him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 23 July Share Posted 23 July (edited) 3 minutes ago, Harbourart said: Thanks Matlock1418 this is definitely a different man as my Edward had two legs in 2004 when I met him. I thought the physical description might help one way or another! But my apologies ... it was his Left thigh = Same difference for your purposes M Edited 23 July by Matlock1418 apology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 23 July Share Posted 23 July On 07/07/2024 at 20:38, Harbourart said: I am currently trying to piece together the service history of Edward Rayns. Could it be possible these two records are for my Edward or is this a different man? Cheers, Pete Image courtesy Ancestry 14 minutes ago, Harbourart said: Hi Keith, so this could be the same man after all, I do hope so as I am getting more confused through more I read. Yes, I concur that the service record for Edward Rayns service number M/295606 relates to Edward Rayns, born 9 Feb 1899, whose death was registered in Stafford in January 2005. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 23 July Share Posted 23 July As Ken notes, a slightly different transcription of his surname via FMP Images courtesy FindMyPast Search results Record description Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbourart Posted 23 July Author Share Posted 23 July 1 minute ago, Keith_history_buff said: Yes, I concur that the service record for Edward Rayns service number M/295606 relates to Edward Rayns, born 9 Feb 1899, whose death was registered in Stafford in January 2005. Thank Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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