" Tanzt das Spandauer Ballett" > "Dancing the Spandau ballet"

[green_acorn]

I was reading an article about the term "Beaten Zone" yesterday written by Arthur B. Alphin, a retired US Army Lieutenant Colonel who is a ballistics expert who attributes the phrase "Dancing the Spandau Ballet" to WW1 German machine gunners when the enemy was being hit in the beaten zone.  In particular, the gun commander telling his crew they were on target.  

Searches of the internet seem to generally attribute it to post WW2 in specific relation to a message written (1979?) in a Berlin nightclub toilet about Rudolf Hess, which is interpreted as Nazi war criminals "dancing" at the end of the hangman's noose in Spandau prison.  One does mention that it was about soldiers dancing around the bullets striking the ground around their feet, where Alphin explains it in more detail.  Hess was not sentenced to death, rather life in prison, but committed suicide (asphyxiation, not a broken neck) on 17 Aug 1987, so that seems to make the whole phrase read by the friend/writer of the band Spandau Ballet attribution incorrect, though may be entirely relevant for the ten Nazi war criminals that were hung. 

Have any of our German members, or language speakers, come across the term in German literature?

Edited 14 July by green_acorn
Corrected the spelling of Arthur B. Alphin's surname

[FROGSMILE]

32 minutes ago, green_acorn said:

I was reading an article about the term "Beaten Zone" yesterday written by Arthur B. Alpin, a retired US Army Lieutenant Colonel who is a ballistics expert who attributes the phrase "Dancing the Spandau Ballet" to WW1 German machine gunners when the enemy was being hit in the beaten zone.  In particular, the gun commander telling his crew they were on target.  

Searches of the internet seem to generally attribute it to post WW2 in specific relation to a message written (1979?) in a Berlin nightclub toilet about Rudolf Hess, which is interpreted as Nazi war criminals "dancing" at the end of the hangman's noose in Spandau prison.  One does mention that it was about soldiers dancing around the bullets striking the ground around their feet, where Alpin explains it in more detail.  Hess was not sentenced to death, rather life in prison, but committed suicide (asphyxiation, not a broken neck) on 17 Aug 1987, so that seems to make the whole phrase read by the friend/writer of the band Spandau Ballet attribution incorrect, though may be entirely relevant for the ten Nazi war criminals that were hung. 

Have any of our German members, or language speakers, come across the term in German literature?

An intriguing query.  One for @GreyC @charlie2 and @AOK4 perhaps.  Also of interest to @knittinganddeath and @deutscherinfanteriest.

[deutscherinfanteriest]

Hello, first of all Spandau often in WW2 British War Diaries are MG34 or MG42s.

So I think it refers to the MG08, probably

[GreyC]

2 hours ago, green_acorn said:

Spandau Ballet attribution incorrect, though may be entirely relevant for the ten Nazi war criminals that were hung. 

Not in Spandau though. The 12 death sentences of the main Nurnberg trial were carried out on  16th Oct 1946, two weeks after sentencing in Nurnberg.

GreyC

Edited 11 July by GreyC

[AOK4]

I haven't encountered the phrase as far as I know.

[charlie2]

I have only come across it in relation to the musicians.

Charlie

[high wood]

My understanding of the term 'Spandau Ballet' is that it was a description of the changing of the prison guards at the prison. Each of the four allied powers took it in turn to guard Rudolph Hess during the long years of his imprisonment, as the Americans moved out, the Soviets moved in and so on. The changing of the guard was done with great ceremony and much goose stepping by the Soviets and the poor British squaddies who were expected to match the Soviet efforts with their own ceremonial drill for the rather pointless task of keeping a whole prison open for just one prisoner, coined the term Spandau ballet.

[GreyC]

And by whom was this term then coined? The Germans or the British?

Thanks,

GreyC

Edited 11 July by GreyC

[high wood]

This article doesn't mention the term Spandau Ballet, but does describe the monthly guard changing.

https://adst.org/2016/06/134-cells-one-inmate-closure-spandau-prison/

[green_acorn]

7 hours ago, deutscherinfanteriest said:

Hello, first of all Spandau often in WW2 British War Diaries are MG34 or MG42s.

So I think it refers to the MG08, probably

Indeed, I am referring to the WW1 MG08

[green_acorn]

5 hours ago, GreyC said:

Not in Spandau though. The 12 death sentences of the main Nurnberg trial were carried out on  16th Oct 1946, two weeks after sentencing in Nurnberg.

GreyC

Thank you.  Allegedly, the quotation about Rudolf Hess was: "Rudolf Hess, all alone, dancing the Spandau Ballet." Which is mentioned in a Mirror newspaper article about the band Spandau Ballet https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/martin-kemps-band-spandau-ballets-26525392

 

4 hours ago, charlie2 said:

I have only come across it in relation to the musicians.

Charlie

Thank you, until yesterday I was the same, though the description by Mr Alpin makes a lot of sense.

[KizmeRD]

I can’t find trace of any German soldiers referring to the MG 08 machine gun as a Spandau, instead, it appears that it was the Allies who first started using the term in order to differentiate it (distance it) from Maxim MGs.

The dear Lt. Col. Alpin may have been taken in by the appeal of the imagery, in much the same way as our late seventies/eighties rock musicians were, but without evidence, I’m not inclined to believe either account. I’m guessing that he simply heard the army rumour mill stories during his own time in Germany with the US Army and choose to believe them at face value.

M.

[green_acorn]

3 hours ago, GreyC said:

And by whom was this term then coined? The Germans or the British?

Thanks,

GreyC

My interpretation of Me Alpins article is the German 

 

4 hours ago, GreyC said:

And by whom was this term then coined? The Germans or the British?

Thanks,

GreyC

My I suggest you read my first post and the links I provided, that will provide the answers you want.

[green_acorn]

23 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

I can’t find trace of any German soldiers referring to the MG 08 machine gun as a Spandau, instead, it appears that it was the Allies who first started using the term in order to differentiate it (distance it) from Maxim MGs.

The dear Lt. Col. Alpin may have been taken in by the appeal of the imagery, in much the same way as our late seventies/eighties rock musicians were, but without evidence, I’m not inclined to believe either account. I’m guessing that he simply heard the army rumour mill stories during his own time in Germany with the US Army and choose to believe them at face value.

M.

May I suggest you have a look at Mr Alpins website via the link I provided, in particular his background.  I would suggest he is far more qualified on the subject than I, and I suspect you.

Chris H

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, green_acorn said:

My interpretation of Me Alpins article is the German 

 

My I suggest you read my first post and the links I provided, that will provide the answers you want.

On reflection of the implied irony it doesn’t seem a likely Germanic expression to me.  I was trying to remember the correct grammatic form, but can’t recall from my long ago language lessons if it would be Ballet Spandau rather than Spandau ballet.

You have asked for opinions and certainly are getting honesty from people’s responses I think.

Edited 12 July by FROGSMILE

[green_acorn]

32 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

On reflection of the implied irony it doesn’t seem like a likely Germanic expression to me.  I was trying to remember the grammatic form but can’t remember from my long ago language lessons if it would be Ballet Spandau rather than Spandau ballet.

You have asked for opinions and certainly are getting honesty from people’s responses I think.

You may well be absolutely correct, I used Google Translate and another text translator, the second gave me two options of the Ballet and Spandau sequence, I went with the lazy Google English speakers style.  I apologise for the minor irritation, but it would seem some only read my post, not the links I provided which provide the context.  In Mr Alpins Beaten Zone article, for which I provided the direct link,  at para seven he states …”the gun chief would shout to the crew that they were “dancing the Spandau Ballet”. The crew would know that they had done their deadly duty.”  The previous paragraphs provide the context of why they called it dancing the Spandau Ballet.

Noting that the Spandau Arsenal was the primary producer of the MG08, along with the Erfurt Arsenal and DWM, I suspect the MG08 being called the Spandau was not uncommon in the German Army and was first picked up by the British from German PW. The usage of the Spandau term for German MG’s in WW2 was technically incorrect, Spandau Arsenal was closed by the Treaty of Versailles in 1919 and the MG34 and MG42 were made elsewhere, completely unrelated to Spandau.  That would suggest British usage of the term was a carry over of slang from WW1.   

Edited 11 July by green_acorn

[green_acorn]

This link has a reasonable discussion on the subject, but I note, that no one who contributed to the English Language & Usage stack exchange discussion sought out German language sources, entirely understandable given the sites intent is English Language usage!

I will do a search of Google.de later today and report back!

Edited 13 July by green_acorn
Added link to the English Language & Usage Stack Exchange

[AOK4]

geen_acorn, you can think this mr. Alpin is an expert (I haven't heard of him before), but if he uses the term in an article without reference, there's no way to check. I (and others here on the forum) read and have read a lot of German books (also books written and published during and shortly after the war). We have never encountered this term. I have especially checked two (German) books specifically dealing with WWI soldier's language and couldn't find the term either.

Jan

[GreyC]

7 hours ago, green_acorn said:

My I suggest you read my first post and the links I provided, that will provide the answers you want.

Hi,

no it doesn´t with reference to my question which was directed at „high wood“ and his suggestion that the term may stem from the way the changing of the guard at Spandau was performed by the British / Russian personnel. Not a suggestion to be found in the linked texts you provided.

Sorry I tried to help.

GreyC

Edited 12 July by GreyC

[KizmeRD]

The lack of collaborative evidence to be found in any of the countless contemporary accounts of German soldiers fighting in the Great War provides reasonable cause to doubt the authenticity of Alpin’s assertions. He is an expert on modern firearms and fire-power, but he’s not an expert on the German military in WW1

M.

 

Edited 12 July by KizmeRD

[AOK4]

Another thing: no German would refer to the MG 08 in WWI as a "Spandau". It was an Allied thing to do so.

Jan

[KizmeRD]

12 hours ago, green_acorn said:

…”the gun chief would shout to the crew that they were “dancing the Spandau Ballet”. The crew would know that they had done their deadly duty.”  The previous paragraphs provide the context of why they called it dancing the Spandau Ballet.

Problem is no source is quoted, and Lt. Col. Alpin was not there himself to hear it. More likely a false account.
M.

[high wood]

The earliest reference to the changing of the guard at the Spandau prison being likened to a ballet that I can find dates to 1953. (London Daily News).

Edited 12 July by high wood

[GreyC]

Well done,

thank you!

GreyC

[green_acorn]

13 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

Problem is no source is quoted, and Lt. Col. Alpin was not there himself to hear it. More likely a false account.
M.

 

20 hours ago, AOK4 said:

geen_acorn, you can think this mr. Alpin is an expert (I haven't heard of him before), but if he uses the term in an article without reference, there's no way to check. I (and others here on the forum) read and have read a lot of German books (also books written and published during and shortly after the war). We have never encountered this term. I have especially checked two (German) books specifically dealing with WWI soldier's language and couldn't find the term either.

Jan

Jan,

Thank you. You were the sort of person I was seeking a response from, because Mr Alpin did not provide a reference, though did provide context and example of how the term came about and why it was used.  If you have a look at his CV, you would see the context of why I referred to him as an expert.

I will write to him and seek an answer.

Chris