Lexus Posted 15 July Share Posted 15 July Re Percy, he enlisted in the RN for 12 years serving from the 15th Aug 1903 to the 7th Jul 1921. He appears to have extended on the 6th Aug 1915. See attached record. I am looking for information about his rate, according to the 1911 Census he was an electrician. His service record shows him starting as an "Act Elec 4" which I interpret as "Acting Electrician 4th Rate". Mr Google tells me that the trade of electrician was only introduced in the RN in 1903 so I am curious to know if Percy would have had to have had prior qualifications to come in at this rate given that he was yet to turn 21 when he enlisted. The last entry in his service record appears to be an acronym - ChEAT, the previous entry is - ch,EA2, if somebody could translate those please. Another question which I hope falls within the GWF rules - was it a requirement for marriage details to be provided when enlisting. According to the 1911 Census Percy married in 1902, no record found. He served aboard HMS Berwick from the 29th Sep 1913 to the 30 Jun 1915 then appears to have been shore based served before serving aboard HMS Repulse from the 8th Aug 1916 to the 14th Dec 1918 so I have assume that during those at sea assignments he would have had pay allocation records of some sort going to his wife. Any information will be very much appreciated. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexus Posted 15 July Author Share Posted 15 July Further to Percy,,, I cannot find details of his passing so if Percy was entitled to a pension there should be a record of when it ceased!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 15 July Share Posted 15 July (edited) ChEA2 = Chief Electrical Artificer 2nd class - 1 Apl 1916. ChEA1 = same 1st class - 1 Apl 1921 Edited 15 July by RNCVR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 15 July Share Posted 15 July His record is continued on folio - 346350 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 15 July Share Posted 15 July (edited) He appears to have extended on the 6th Aug 1915 Percy signed on for a 2nd term on this date to qualify for pension. He required 22 yrs service for this. He was awarde his RN LS (Long Service) medal on 16 July 1918, likley when serving at HMS Pembroke (Base at Chatham). It appears to have been Pembroke II which was at Eastchurch, Sheppey, an RNAS Station. Edited 15 July by RNCVR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyH Posted 15 July Share Posted 15 July 6 hours ago, Lexus said: I cannot find details of his passing so if Percy was entitled to a pension there should be a record of when it ceased!!!!!! Died at Weston super Mare Q2 1959 aged 77. BillyH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 15 July Share Posted 15 July 2 hours ago, RNCVR said: He was awarde his RN LS (Long Service) medal on 16 July 1918, likley when serving at HMS Pembroke (Base at Chatham). It appears to have been Pembroke II which was at Eastchurch, Sheppey, an RNAS Station. He was serving in HMS REPULSE in July 1918. He was in Chatham Barracks (PEMBROKE II) April to August 1916, The connection between HMS PEMBROKE (actually PEMBROKE III) and RNAS Eastchurch had ceased on 12 April 1915 when Eastchurch men were transferred to HMS PRESIDENT II. From 1 April 1918 RNAS Eastchurch was an RAF base and PRESIDENT II connections ceased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 15 July Share Posted 15 July (edited) @horatio2 I am reading from his ADM 188 Percy's service in that timeframe as -- Pembroke II(?) 27 Apl to 7 Aug 1916 & Repulse - 8 Aug '16 to 17 Dec '18. & him being advanced to ChEA2 on 1 Apl '16. Edited 15 July by RNCVR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 15 July Share Posted 15 July I agree those dates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexus Posted 16 July Author Share Posted 16 July 18 hours ago, BillyH said: Died at Weston super Mare Q2 1959 aged 77. BillyH. Thank you for that, I did find it on Ancestry but I am still trying to reconcile it. Electoral rolls have him in Scotland from the time of his discharge up to at least 1951. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexus Posted 16 July Author Share Posted 16 July 20 hours ago, RNCVR said: His record is continued on folio - 346350 Thank you for that - I missed it. Appears that while Ancestry records it they did not pickup on it. Ancestry shows last ship served on was Vivid III on the 7th Jul 1921 when it was actually Vivid II on the 22nd Feb 1923. Can anybody have a guess what the amount of £316.6.0 was about. From HMS Ambrose ships log 6th Dec 1922 he was transferred to Vindictive for passage back to England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexus Posted 16 July Author Share Posted 16 July 20 hours ago, RNCVR said: ChEA2 = Chief Electrical Artificer 2nd class - 1 Apl 1916. ChEA1 = same 1st class - 1 Apl 1921 Pardon my ignorance but does that equate to Chief Petty Officer?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 16 July Share Posted 16 July (edited) 5 hours ago, Lexus said: Can anybody have a guess what the amount of £316.6.0 was about. His record shows that he was discharged to "Shore on Reduction", as part of the huge reduction in RN personnel in the post-war years. Since he had voluntarily re-engaged to serve an additional ten years for pension in 1915 he would, in the normal course, have served a total of 22 years to August 1925. That large gratuity was by way of compensation for forfeiting his pension. It was a considerable sum of money in those days. Edited 16 July by horatio2 correction to date Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 16 July Share Posted 16 July 55 minutes ago, Lexus said: Pardon my ignorance but does that equate to Chief Petty Officer?? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 16 July Share Posted 16 July Image courtesy FindMyPast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 16 July Share Posted 16 July Hope this table, created by Dave Perkins, hosted on the website of the late Paul Benyon, is of interest regarding the Branches of the Royal Navy and associated rates https://sites.rootsweb.com/~pbtyc/Uniform/Rates_1918.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexus Posted 16 July Author Share Posted 16 July 1 hour ago, horatio2 said: His record shows that he was discharged to "Shore on Reduction", as part of the huge reduction in RN personnel in the post-war years. Since he had voluntarily re-engaged to serve an additional ten years for pension in 1915 he would, in the normal course, have served a total of 22 years to August 1915. That large gratuity was by way of compensation for forfeiting his pension. It was a considerable sum of money in those days. A couple of questions,, 1 - How long would he have had to serve in total to get a pension? He enlisted 15 Aug 1903 and last ship he served on was Vivid II 22 Feb 1923 = 19 years 6 months and 7 days 2 - What would the pension have been worth per week/month, would it have been for life, would it have been indexed? If £316 was all he received in lieu of a pension I think he was screwed According to https://sites.rootsweb.com/~pbtyc/LondonGazette/Pay_Rates_1920.html#Artificers a Chief Artificer 1st Class would be paid 12 shillings and sixpence per day. I would expect there would allowances for good conduct, years of service etc that would add a little but not a lot. The base rate equates to £2/12/6 per week so the £316 is just over 2 years wages. Hard to put that in perspective when he would expect to receive somewhere between £80 to £100 per year as a pension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 16 July Share Posted 16 July (edited) Since he had voluntarily re-engaged to serve an additional ten years for pension in 1915 he would, in the normal course, have served a total of 22 years to August 1915. Percy's 2nd engagement was complete on 15 Aug 1925. At that time he would have qualified for a 22 yr pension. I feel his 316/16/10 gratuity which he received upon reduction of service discharge on 22 Feb '23 would have been compensation for his 2 1/2 yrs remaining in his engagement, had he been permitted to complete it. I dont feel he would have lost his accrued pension for his long service. Edited 16 July by RNCVR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexus Posted 16 July Author Share Posted 16 July 27 minutes ago, RNCVR said: " compensation for his 2 1/2 yrs remaining in his engagement, had he been permitted to complete it. I dont feel he would have lost his accrued pension for his long service." I can accept that. Many thanks to all who contributed to this post, it is very much appreciated. Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 16 July Share Posted 16 July (edited) The post-war reductions in RN manpower were associated with Pension + Gratuity + Bonus calculations which were quite complex and I do not think we have nailed down the result in this case. Full details are laid out in this link - https://sites.rootsweb.com/~pbtyc/LondonGazette/Reduction_Rtgs.html Edited 16 July by horatio2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 17 July Share Posted 17 July (edited) A rough calculation - I am not a Paymaster! - He did not forfeit his pension but was discharged on reduction with a Pension and Gratuity. Under Section A of the Schedule: It would appear that, as a man with “19 and under 20 years' pensionable service”, he would have been awarded a Basic Pension of 2s/7d per diem, or, probably, approximately £50 per annum with extra allowances for LS &GC Medal, GCBs et al. He was also awarded a lump-sum Gratuity which was calculated on the difference between this daily rate of Pension and his daily rate of pay as a serving Chief EA1. His basic pay as a Chief EA1 was (as previously noted) 12s/6d per diem, so the daily difference was approximately 10s. This ten shillings daily difference was calculated for a 21 month period (approx. 640 days) and paid as the Gratuity – 640 days @ 10s (£0.5) = £320. This Gratuity calculation is very close to the £317 that was actually paid. On 16/07/2024 at 11:10, Lexus said: What would the pension have been worth per week/month, would it have been for life, would it have been indexed? AS calculated above his normal pension (for life)after 22 years would have been about £55 per annum As for indexing: "The foregoing rates of pension not to be liable to reduction hereafter in respect of reduced cost of living." but no mention of index increases. Edited 17 July by horatio2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexus Posted 27 July Author Share Posted 27 July Thank you horation2. Given the chaotic economic climate that was developing in the immediate post war years it amost sounds like the beanccounters of the government of the day were not sure which way the cost of living was going to go. Historically it goes up so why they referred to "reduced cost of living" is a bit of a puzzle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizmeRD Posted 27 July Share Posted 27 July All it’s saying is that if the cost of living decreases, then the pension paid out won’t be any less than the full amount stated. (The assumption is therefore that it would have been indexed in some way). MB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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