MM and CDG 34th Div RE Signals Section Help Needed?

[Norfolksapper]

I’m wondering if anybody can help with the below. I'm trying to find out what he won the awards for? I have the war diary for the signals section but it's not very good at listing individuals during the war. 

A Great War ‘1918 German Spring Offensive’ M.M. group of four awarded to Acting Sergeant W. E. Frost, Royal Engineers, who was wounded in June 1918 Military Medal, G.V.R. (85050 Cpl. W. E. Frost. 34/D.S. Coy. R.E.); British War and Victory Medals (85020 A. Sjt. W. E. Frost. R.E.); France, Third Republic, Croix de Guerre, bronze, reverse dated 1914-1918. M.M. London Gazette 6 August 1918. French Croix de Guerre London Gazette 22 November 1918. 

Walter Edward Frost attested for the Royal Engineers in Norwich and served with the 34th Divisional Signal Company during the Great War on the Western Front. Awarded both the Military Medal and the French Croix de Guerre, he was additionally wounded in June 1918 (War Office weekly casualty list of 18 June 1918 refers).

[brianmorris547]

He is named as a Pioneer No 3 Section in a Nominal Roll attached to the January 1916 War Diary of 34 Sigs Co.

The LG shows that he was from Norwich but I could not find any mention of the award or wound in the Norfolk papers.

EDIT No mention in the WD of the 34 Div A&QMG.

Brian

Edited 22 July by brianmorris547

[PRC]

On 21/07/2024 at 21:17, Norfolksapper said:

M.M. London Gazette 6 August 1918.

His MM card in the National Archive catalogue includes a schedule number - unfortunately the watermark makes it difficult for me to be sure what it is, but it's free to download if you sign in with your National Archive account. A forum expert like @Ivor Anderson may be able to relate the schedule number to an approximate period. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6161832

On 21/07/2024 at 21:17, Norfolksapper said:

he was additionally wounded in June 1918 (War Office weekly casualty list of 18 June 1918 refers).

You're normally looking at a time lag of 4 to 10 weeks, sometimes longer, seldom shorter for Other Ranks. So potentially the wounding and the MM award could relate to the same incident. His entry can can be found on the Daily List isued on the 13th June 1918, (and included in the Weekly List published on the 18th), on page 29 very near the top of the right hand column. (Image linked below).

Image courtesy The National Library of Scotland.

I think there is only one other five digit service number starting 85xxx in that list of R.E. wounded, (85048 Acting Serjeant A.E. Jones) and that man also doesn't have any surviving service records.

I've not come across any thing for him so far in my notes from the Norwich based newspapers, (Eastern Daily Press \ Eastern Evening News \ Norwich Mercury \ Norfolk Chronicle), none of which are currently available online for the Great War era. But I've a long way to go to get them all typed up and so easier to search. Unfortunately "Frost" isn't the easiest of terms to search for

Cheers,
Peter

[Ivor Anderson]

Frost's MM group recently sold by Noonan's for £420 + fees: https://www.noonans.co.uk/auctions/calendar/731/catalogue/494939/?offset=80

M.M. London Gazette 6 August 1918: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30830/supplement/9239

Award for German Spring Offensive 21 March to 6 April 1918. His schedule no. 176523 is towards the end of that gazette range. Service no. 85020 on MM card.

French Croix de Guerre London Gazette 22 November 1918: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31024/supplement/13730

[brianmorris547]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

His MM card in the National Archive catalogue includes a schedule number - unfortunately the watermark makes it difficult for me to be sure what it is, but it's free to download if you sign in with your National Archive account. A forum expert like @Ivor Anderson may be able to relate the schedule number to an approximate period. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6161832

You're normally looking at a time lag of 4 to 10 weeks, sometimes longer, seldom shorter for Other Ranks. So potentially the wounding and the MM award could relate to the same incident. His entry can can be found on the Daily List isued on the 13th June 1918, (and included in the Weekly List published on the 18th), on page 29 very near the top of the right hand column. (Image linked below).

Image courtesy The National Library of Scotland.

I think there is only one other five digit service number starting 85xxx in that list of R.E. wounded, (85048 Acting Serjeant A.E. Jones) and that man also doesn't have any surviving service records.

I

Cheers,
Peter

Peter

85048 A E Jones is on the 1916 Nomional Roll of 34 Sigs Co. L/Cpl 1A Section. Others on the NR have numbers starting 84, 92, 94. By 1918 of course reinforcements to RE Units from No 4 GBD RE at Rouen could have come from anywhere and will have non 34 Div numbers. I will have another look at the WOCL later.

Signallers may have come out direct from Fenny Stratford, I am not sure.

Men from the same Unit wounded in the same action are usually on the same Times or WOCL. 

Brian

[Norfolksapper]

Hello thanks so much for the info here. I have all the war diaries for the 34th RE companies, but the signal section is the most devoid of individuals mentioned. I really appreciate the help.    

[Ivor Anderson]

His MM award is probably on a long list at Divisional or Corps level, due to the large number awarded for the German Spring Offensive.

The 34th Divisional Signal Company diary may indicate days of intense action? It is likely an award for keeping communications open under fire.

The 34th Div A&QMG diary may be worth a look: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14054868

Edited 23 July by Ivor Anderson
Additional Info

[PRC]

2 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

85048 A E Jones is on the 1916 Nomional Roll of 34 Sigs Co. L/Cpl 1A Section. Others on the NR have numbers starting 84, 92, 94. By 1918 of course reinforcements to RE Units from No 4 GBD RE at Rouen could have come from anywhere and will have non 34 Div numbers. I will have another look at the WOCL later.

The 84xxx and 85xxx series  RE service numbers covered the original members of the Field Companies of the 34th Division when they were raised in Norwich and from which the other ranks members of what would become the 34th Division Signal Company were initially drawn. Of course it would soon be diluted as they went through training and subsequent replacement drafts - you only have to look at the War Memorial of the 34th Division of the Royal Engineers in the cloisters at Norwich Cathedral to get a feel for that.

But I suspect that long list of RE wounded would have come from multiple units and sources, all potentially with differing time frames between wounding and appearing in the OCL, so Jones was the only one who leapt out as a possible indicator of the time frame for Frosts' wounding. Even then no guarantee Jones was still in any of the RE units of the 34th Division. I didn't scrutinise the list in detail, but don't think there were any other Norfolk next of kin locations.

There may be other 34th Division men in the list and they may have surviving records \ newspaper mentions that will pin down the period when they were wounded but it would be a long winded exercise with no gurantee of anything useful coming out of it - so I went for a "quick and dirty" approach

Cheers,
Peter

[brianmorris547]

Peter

Thanks for the reply. I found the same in my research of 30 Div RE numbers. The original blocks were in the 81xxx, 83xxx and 99xxx series. 

When I was searching 1916 RE WDs for any mention of my gf (who enlisted into 30 Div RE in Bolton) I noticed that 17 Div Sigs Co mentioned a Base Signals Depot in Abbeville. I attach the page from the December 1915 WD. Two of those named John Forsyth and Bertram Barry have records. The B 103 shows that they were each transferred from Fenny Stratford to the Base Signals Depot and then joined 17 Sigs. Unfortunately neither B 103 confirms Abbeville but it does seem that trained signallers went to a Base Signals Depot and the Pioneers would have come from 4 GBD RE in Rouen. 

I will have a quick look at the WOCL. 

Brian

TNA WO 95/1994 via FMP

[PRC]

1 hour ago, brianmorris547 said:

Thanks for the reply. I found the same in my research of 30 Div RE numbers. The original blocks were in the 81xxx, 83xxx and 99xxx series. 

@Norfolksapper had a thread on the go about those original members of 207th, 208th and 209th Field Company, plus the Divisional Signals Company to which both me and thee had some responses

@mrfrank also had a thread on the officers of the 34th Division Engineers in which he also posted a picture of the members of the Sergeants Mess - unfortunately before either Frost or Jones had reached that dizzy height.

The local press has a poor quality picture of the men of the new Field Companys doing some basic semaphore work in the local park in the days after recruitment. Presumamably the best might have been siphoned off into the Signal Company. I've no doubt these would have been supplemented by specialists who trained with the RE Signals before being assigned to a unit both while the Signal Company was still in the UK and on movement to France.

Cheers,
Peter