Jewish Battalion Cap Insignia - fake?

[DapperDave]

Hi folks, I haven’t posted on here in quite some time. I’m looking for opinions as to the authenticity of a cap badge in my collection: the Jewish Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers. 

Would anyone out there be able to determine from the photos whether this is real or fake? I’ve looked at other examples and it seems close, except for a lack of tarnish/age/patina. 

Thank you for all opinions in advance. Ready to rip this bandaid off! 

 

*I have tried gently bending it in several areas, and it is sturdy/solid with slight give when pressure is applied. Not flimsy in any sense. 
 

-Dave

Edited 23 July by DapperDave

[58 Div Mule]

Dangerous territory, so many fakes and restrikes around. I'm sure folks here  will have a view, but maybe worth a post on the British Badge Forum too?

Are you happy with it as a representation of the badge in question and the price paid.....

58 DM.

[Bob Davies]

1 hour ago, 58 Div Mule said:

Dangerous territory, so many fakes and restrikes around. I'm sure folks here  will have a view, but maybe worth a post on the British Badge Forum too?

Are you happy with it as a representation of the badge in question and the price paid.....

58 DM.

Were the originals stamped out 58 DM?

To my eye the OP looks to be a cast object, not stamped.

[DapperDave]

2 hours ago, 58 Div Mule said:

Dangerous territory, so many fakes and restrikes around. I'm sure folks here  will have a view, but maybe worth a post on the British Badge Forum too?

Are you happy with it as a representation of the badge in question and the price paid.....

58 DM.

Hi 58 DM, Yes dangerous territory indeed. You might say collecting can be a minefield, to use an appropriate term. I have tried to register on British Badge Forum, but when filling out the form it requires an 'invitation code' from the admin and there's no way to contact them directly, so for now I gave up on that venture. 

I am happy with it as a representation, but the collecting itch in me from when I was twelve is eager for a genuine example. But if it is a fake, then it's something worth holding on to in order to learn from and expand my knowledge. The price was high through, so I'm a bit bummed about that. 

Dave

1 hour ago, Bob Davies said:

Were the originals stamped out 58 DM?

To my eye the OP looks to be a cast object, not stamped.

Hi Bob,

I will let 58 DM weigh in on this as I do not know. I did try the stress test again without as much caution and the slider bent slightly, which I'm afraid is a red flag. 

[FROGSMILE]

It’s not a cast badge, which tend to have solid backs more often than not.  It has all the hallmarks of a die struck badge, but it’s very pristine and squeaky clean looking as if made for the collectors market, sometimes using the original dies that were sold off as surplus.  Nowadays though, especially since the Internet brought the American market into British badge collecting, it has justified manufacturers in what was before 1947, British-India, to make new dies just for the collectors market.  Probably one of the largest commercial centres is at Sialkot in Pakistan, but there are many more in Aligarh, Kanpur and New Delhi in India.  Kanpur and Sialkot both market old wartime pattern British badges**.

A feature of many but not all old British made badges is a tapered slider narrower at the bottom and then after that it’s apparent age and wear and tear but even that can be faked.

My advice to you quite frankly is not to expect to find many genuine old badges unless you have documented provenance and then you will pay a high premium.  I don’t really understand the obsession with getting original badges unless you’re a very wealthy man.  The war was over a century ago now and original badges have inevitably become rarer in terms of being for sale in the public domain.  When I was a boy I could buy original badges for sixpence, or a shilling from market stalls, but with Americans and other foreigners now collecting with a money no object attitude the situation has been transformed.  If you’re not financially in that league then I’d say accept the good quality restrikes and just enjoy collecting affordable, representative badges of the correct pattern. 

** As well as thousands of brass bugles with sand cast British badges affixed that are completely fake and unsoundable.  People buy them thinking they are genuine.  There’s one born every day….

Edited 24 July by FROGSMILE

[DapperDave]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s not a cast badge, which tend to have solid basks more often than not.  It has all the hallmarks of a die struck badge but it’s very pristine and squeaky clean looking as if made for the collectors market, sometimes using the original dies that were sold off as surplus.  Nowadays though, especially since the Internet brought the American market into British badge collecting it’s justified manufacturers in what was before 1947 to make new dies just for the collectors market.  Probably the largest is at Sialkot in Pakistan, but there are many more in Aligarh, Kanpur and New Delhi in India.  Kanpur and Sialkot both market old wartime pattern British badges.

A feature of many but not all old British made badges is a tapered slider narrower at the bottom and then after that it’s apparent age and wear and tear but even that can be faked.

My advice to you quite frankly is not to expect to find many genuine old badges unless you have documented provenance and then you will pay a high premium.  I don’t really understand the obsession with getting original badges unless you’re a very wealthy man.  The war was over a century ago now and original badges on sale have become rarer in terms of being for sale the public domain.  When I was a boy I could buy original badges for sixpence or a shilling from market stalls, but with Americans and other foreigners now collecting with a money no object attitude the situation has been transformed.  If you’re not financially in that league then I’d say accept the good quality restrikes and just enjoy collecting affordable, representative badges of the correct pattern.  

This is very helpful insight. It sounds like it is in fact, a fake, though a good one. Do you think the bending of the slider in the back is significant? I think for me part of the thrill of holding history in my hands is to hold a genuine piece, rather than a representative piece. Just my own style though. 

Thanks again, frogsmile! 

 

Dave

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, DapperDave said:

This is very helpful insight. It sounds like it is in fact, a fake, though a good one. Do you think the bending of the slider in the back is significant? I think for me part of the thrill of holding history in my hands is to hold a genuine piece, rather than a representative piece. Just my own style though. 

Thanks again, frogsmile! 

 

Dave

The vertical shank (aka ‘slider’) is intended to have a little bit of flex and won’t always be rigidly straight.  There is often a slight ‘crimp’ mark just below the right angle bend where it has been held in a vice or pliers during the bending process.  It doesn’t mean it’s necessarily a fake and it is a mark you’d usually see in badges made utilising traditional methods of manufacture.

I understand your rationale regarding ‘original’ pieces, but you can expect to pay more from a vendor who uses “original” as a marketing feature and will run the risk of being misled until you develop experience via handling a lot of badges and learning the various pitfalls.

The British and Commonwealth Military Badge Forum is full of people who obsess over such factors and they will delight in telling you about faulty dies and fraudulent techniques, so it might be worth your while persevering with the registration process if gaining such knowledge is going to be important to you.

Edited 24 July by FROGSMILE

[max7474]

You may be interested to know that despite badge dealers' claims to the contrary this badge was not worn by the 3 Jewish Battalions of the Royal Fusiliers.  Whilst they asked for a badge of their won they wore the RF grenade up to the end of the war.

In 1919 the 3 RF battalions were merged and reduced in number to a single Regiment - the First Judeans.  They did wear this badge for their short existence.   This was all documented at the time and I can pass on the primary source material if any one is interested.

For what it is worth this is a very convincing example of a much faked badge.  

[max7474]

This is a genuine 1st Judeans badge imo

 

https://britisharmybadges.com/shop.php?code=59530

[Bob Davies]

20 hours ago, DapperDave said:

Hi 58 DM, Yes dangerous territory indeed. You might say collecting can be a minefield, to use an appropriate term. I have tried to register on British Badge Forum, but when filling out the form it requires an 'invitation code' from the admin and there's no way to contact them directly, so for now I gave up on that venture. 

I am happy with it as a representation, but the collecting itch in me from when I was twelve is eager for a genuine example. But if it is a fake, then it's something worth holding on to in order to learn from and expand my knowledge. The price was high through, so I'm a bit bummed about that. 

Dave

Hi Bob,

I will let 58 DM weigh in on this as I do not know. I did try the stress test again without as much caution and the slider bent slightly, which I'm afraid is a red flag. 

Hi Dave,

the reason I think it is a cast item is the surface texture on the slider and on the back edges of the badge itself.

Any original badge sliders I have seen are smooth, they were stamped out from flat sheet and brazed/hard soldered onto the back of the badge, is my understanding of their manufacture. It is impossible to stamp out a badge front and the slider as one at the same time. The slider is a different component and must be added afterwards.

If anyone knows any different please tell me how it was done and I will be amazed at the person who invented the tooling to do it.

Modern lost wax casting techniques are very clever and the use of it in skilled hands can reproduce an item very similar to an original.

Therefore if you have an original badge that has a crisp front face it is very easy to reproduce it in one cast.

The slider being cast with the badge in one go.

The copied item produced will be slightly smaller than the original, say 3% less. Most of the shrinkage is from the rubber mould making.

It will also copy any flaws/defects or desired detail.

The bend mark on the slider will be reproduced.

One thing to look out for on lost wax cast items are 'parting lines' that have been cast as detail onto the item. As part of the manufacturing process a rubber mould is made from the original object to be reproduced. The original badge or pattern is surrounded by sheets of rubber in a frame and vulcanised together under pressure.

Next the original badge or pattern must be cut out of the rubber mould by the use of a scalpel.

When the mould has been cut open and the original badge /pattern re moved, hot wax is forced under pressure into the mould to form an exact copy of the original, only it is a wax copy.

As the two sides/parts of rubber mould never closes exactly on to each other, a fine line is left on the wax copy.

This fine line is reproduced in the brass casting and called the 'parting line' or 'part line'.

By cutting the rubber mould on the sharp corners of an edge the parting line can be somewhat disguised but where the scalpel moves slightly off the line it is revealed as a 'part line'.

If you have to cut the mould across a flat face/part  the parting line will show up like a beacon.

Or where the rubber mould has to be cut to allow the release of the wax copy, such as where the slider meets the badge back this will also be seen easily.

'Part' or 'parting lines' can be removed either from the wax copy or from the brass cast object. Extra work and time to do, so often overlooked especially in an area hard to get at, ie behind the slider where it meets the back of the badge.

Another sign of a lost wax cast item are tiny balls of metal in corners of the object, these are air bubbles not removed in the investment process and form as tiny balls of metal and either fall off easily or are attached quite well to the finished casting and are often overlooked, therefore left on the object. They are tiny, though sometimes quite big.

There is one more but I will finish now.

If you can follow what I have written all good, if not ask away.

I spent 20 odd years in this industry so I think I am qualified to write all this down.

Regards,

Bob.

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Bob, reading between the lines I sense that I’ve inadvertently l caused you some mild upset.  To put the record straight I don’t doubt your credentials with regards to your time in an industry involving wax casting and did not for one moment intend to cause you any offence.  My point, such as it was, is that at the time of WW1 British (and Empire) Army badges were made by one of two manufacturing procedures, one official and one unofficial.

All the British official badges were die struck in an industry largely centred in Birmingham’s jewellery quarter, although some were also made in London, Edinburgh and Glasgow.  There were a great many companies, some of them still surviving.

The second method was relatively crude sand casting.  This latter was  generally on a small scale with a quality that varied widely.  Sometimes they were made by the native jewellers running stalls in regimental bazaars and often involved an original, British made badge used as the ‘master’ to form the mold.  The finished piece was rubbed down to remove any residue and then the front intensely polished to smooth out any rough details (the latter apparently often done by children).

The finished item was then sold to the soldiers. As they’d been smoothed they usually polished quite well.  The back of the sand cast badge was solid and often showed imperfections, but most importantly unlike a die struck badge there was no indented detail, and the badge was more substantial, weightier, as a result.  Soldiers in Egypt often bought these, as well as those in India.  They could also make collar badges, bandsmen’s music case badges and, especially, pagri badges for native mess Chokidaars and their boss the Khitmatgaar.

Between the two world wars Indian troops of some units began to wear more European style headdress in addition to the pagris that they had long used and that led to greater demand for better quality insignia (pagri badges for sepoys had been mostly sand cast before, with their European officers purchasing high quality badges from Britain).  This increase in demand led to the British-Indian Army arranging for dies to be made in India so that Indian regimental badges did not have to be made in and imported from Britain**.

It is these embryo manufacturing concerns that after 1947 developed their production and established their own clientele internationally.  They were aided in this in that they continued to use traditional techniques and metals and did not go for the maintenance free anodised aluminium ‘stabrite’ that was increasingly favoured in Britain and other modern markets.  Ergo, ironically the Indian and Pakistan industries have become the last bastion of old style badges, and it is these that form the bedrock of manufacture and supply for the restrike and reproduction markets.

Turning to wax casting.  In the now 50+ years that I’ve been collecting, and researching for my own interest, as a hobby, plus my time professionally in the Army supply chain for periods of time, I have never seen nor heard of any British military badges produced using wax casting.  If you have evidence to the contrary I will be intrigued to see it?  The badges posted by Dave and Max have the typical look of being die struck, but from old and well used dies where some of the crisp detail has been lost through extensive usage leaving a more smooth finish to both, indentation on the back and impression on the front. This is normal wear and tear and in any case favoured for reproduction because it gives each badge the veteran appearance of usage and wear.

** British-India favoured a system of ‘government factories’ using a model that had been abandoned in Britain (e.g. Royal Army Clothing Depot, Pimlico) in favour of private industry.  It is these government factories that before partition developed their own dies and insignia supply chain.

Edited 25 July by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

36 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Bob, reading between the lines I sense that I’ve inadvertently l caused you some mild upset.  To put the record straight I don’t doubt your credentials with regards to your time in an industry involving wax casting and did not for one moment intend to cause you any offence.  My point, such as it was, is that at the time of WW1 British (and Empire) Army badges were made by one of two manufacturing procedures, one official and one unofficial.

FROGSMILE,  not at all, no upset caused nor offense taken.

I need to go to my bed now but I will continue our conversation tomorrow.

Regards,

Bob,

 

[max7474]

Any genuine Judean badge would not be from a worn die as the production run for so very small - a  single battalion of less than a thousand men which only existed for a number of months.  Likewise they were worn for such a short period that they would not have had enough frequent polishing to cause a lot of surface wear.

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, max7474 said:

Any genuine Judean badge would not be from a worn die as the production run for so very small - a  single battalion of less than a thousand men which only existed for a number of months.  Likewise they were worn for such a short period that they would not have had enough frequent polishing to cause a lot of surface wear.

Yes I think that’s true, hence David’s badge seems like a reproduction from a more modern die.

[Bob Davies]

One more reason I think that this is a casting and not a stamping.

Screenshot below courtesy of  @DapperDave

It is the end of the bottom scroll.

I believe an original stamped badge has been used as the master pattern to make this badge.

It looks to have been filled in with filler to thicken it out to help with the flow of metal when casting it.

The line just in from the edge from 9 o'clock  to 12 o'clock is where the filler has not met with the original thin stamped scroll edge.

There is no reason for the line to have been created by the die set.

The triangular area from 6 o'clock to 9 o'clock does not look like an area struck by a die set. (I need to find a picture of the back of a similar shaped badge scroll, to compare)

Looking at the backs of other original cap badges, the scroll and letters are very well defined and hollow, not filled in like this is.

There are other marks on the back in other places that do not correspond with a die set.

Without having this badge in my hand and looking with my own eyes and loupe, I cannot be 100% certain, but I am sticking to my guns here.

All of my thoughts here are from experience in working in the casting game, to share with you all in an attempt to let you know what goes on in the art of deception.

Beware of 'Gordon Highlanders' and 'Welsh Guards' cap badges is all I will say.

Do not be concerned about upsetting me with any comment you have, anything we can all learn from each other about this topic is good, I do not claim to know it all here, whatsoever.

Dave sorry to disappoint you at this stage with my thoughts, what we need here is a genuine badge to compare yours against.

With my regards,

Bob.

[mancpal]

Weighing a bona-fide badge against a reproduction may be telling. I’m not sure why this has continued so long, all I see is a casting, certainly not stamped.

Simon

[FROGSMILE]

Probably an original.

Sand cast with master for mold.

Edited 25 July by FROGSMILE

[battle of loos]

good morning,

I have nevers seeing this badge come from ground of the battlefield.

regards

michel

[max7474]

As I explained above it was not worn during the war so you won't find one on a battlefield.  It was finally authorised to be worn in December 1919 when the First Judeans were in Palestine and the 39th and 40th Battalions were folded into it. 

[Bob Davies]

There is another explanation for this cap badge that we have not considered yet.

As @max7474 informs us, there was only a need for a 1,000 odd of these badges.

The die sinkers would be able to make the die sets for the badge with no problem.

However did the seven long candles/fingers or whatever they are prove to be too fragile in actual use, that one or two or more of the original stamped badges had their backs filled to thicken them out and thereby give them more strength. Ergo, the 1,000 badges needed were sand cast as per @FROGSMILEs picture above (the badge on the plate/spit pattern, used for ease of moulding in sand, with a cope and drag)

So all we are left to find these days are the cast badges taken from the original stamping, with filled in backs, master patterns?

There are no stamped ones to be found as they were all cast?

The die sets long lost, along with the master patterns used for mould making, all bar the one pictured above?

Regards,

Bob.

[max7474]

Bob an interesting theory but for that to have happened the badges would need to be made, shipped to Palestine, found to be wanting, recalled, modified and then reissued after being shipped to Palestine.  The 1st Judeans were disbanded in 1920 so there was a very short window for this badge to be worn.  

British makers did not sand cast badges.  They could be die struck (reverse impressions) or die cast where by only the front was pressed and the reverse left partly solid  in places for strength.

The  Regtl history is full of ire at the WD anti-semitism and they believed that it was official obstruction that led to the badge and name not being given until after the war had ended so I don't think it is likely that they were listened to if they had complained about the quality of their badges.

If the original poster does not want the badge then I will quite happily give it a good home.

Edited 26 July by max7474

[Bob Davies]

7 hours ago, max7474 said:

Bob an interesting theory but for that to have happened the badges would need to be made, shipped to Palestine, found to be wanting, recalled, modified and then reissued after being shipped to Palestine.  The 1st Judeans were disbanded in 1920 so there was a very short window for this badge to be worn.  

British makers did not sand cast badges.  They could be die struck (reverse impressions) or die cast where by only the front was pressed and the reverse left partly solid  in places for strength.

The  Regtl history is full of ire at the WD anti-semitism and they believed that it was official obstruction that led to the badge and name not being given until after the war had ended so I don't think it is likely that they were listened to if they had complained about the quality of their badges.

If the original poster does not want the badge then I will quite happily give it a good home.

Thank you for your explanation Max7474

that makes sense to me.

The die sinkers would know what would work as a usable badge and make them as they saw fit for use.

One stored in the memory bank, with thanks.

Regards,

Bob.

 

[DapperDave]

On 24/07/2024 at 04:36, FROGSMILE said:

The vertical shank (aka ‘slider’) is intended to have a little bit of flex and won’t always be rigidly straight.  There is often a slight ‘crimp’ mark just below the right angle bend where it has been held in a vice or pliers during the bending process.  It doesn’t mean it’s necessarily a fake and it is a mark you’d usually see in badges made utilising traditional methods of manufacture.

I understand your rationale regarding ‘original’ pieces, but you can expect to pay more from a vendor who uses “original” as a marketing feature and will run the risk of being misled until you develop experience via handling a lot of badges and learning the various pitfalls.

The British and Commonwealth Military Badge Forum is full of people who obsess over such factors and they will delight in telling you about faulty dies and fraudulent techniques, so it might be worth your while persevering with the registration process if gaining such knowledge is going to be important to you.

That's fair and I do see your point. I'll definitely keep trying to get in contact with the British and Commonwealth Military Badge forum. I'm sure there's a way to reach them. I think I do need more experience handling insignia however. I mostly focused on the webbing kit until recently. 

On 24/07/2024 at 14:02, max7474 said:

You may be interested to know that despite badge dealers' claims to the contrary this badge was not worn by the 3 Jewish Battalions of the Royal Fusiliers.  Whilst they asked for a badge of their won they wore the RF grenade up to the end of the war.

In 1919 the 3 RF battalions were merged and reduced in number to a single Regiment - the First Judeans.  They did wear this badge for their short existence.   This was all documented at the time and I can pass on the primary source material if any one is interested.

For what it is worth this is a very convincing example of a much faked badge.  

That is quite interesting to know and it's new to me. Thank you. And yes, I'd be very interested in primary source materials if you don't mind sharing. Always good to gain a more accurate sense of the history. 

[DapperDave]

On 24/07/2024 at 14:13, max7474 said:

This is a genuine 1st Judeans badge imo

 

https://britisharmybadges.com/shop.php?code=59530

It is more 'authentic' looking and I'm very cautiously intrigued by it! Thank you for sharing that. Is  that something you'd pick up yourself? 

[DapperDave]

On 24/07/2024 at 16:09, Bob Davies said:

Hi Dave,

the reason I think it is a cast item is the surface texture on the slider and on the back edges of the badge itself.

Any original badge sliders I have seen are smooth, they were stamped out from flat sheet and brazed/hard soldered onto the back of the badge, is my understanding of their manufacture. It is impossible to stamp out a badge front and the slider as one at the same time. The slider is a different component and must be added afterwards.

If anyone knows any different please tell me how it was done and I will be amazed at the person who invented the tooling to do it.

Modern lost wax casting techniques are very clever and the use of it in skilled hands can reproduce an item very similar to an original.

Therefore if you have an original badge that has a crisp front face it is very easy to reproduce it in one cast.

The slider being cast with the badge in one go.

The copied item produced will be slightly smaller than the original, say 3% less. Most of the shrinkage is from the rubber mould making.

It will also copy any flaws/defects or desired detail.

The bend mark on the slider will be reproduced.

One thing to look out for on lost wax cast items are 'parting lines' that have been cast as detail onto the item. As part of the manufacturing process a rubber mould is made from the original object to be reproduced. The original badge or pattern is surrounded by sheets of rubber in a frame and vulcanised together under pressure.

Next the original badge or pattern must be cut out of the rubber mould by the use of a scalpel.

When the mould has been cut open and the original badge /pattern re moved, hot wax is forced under pressure into the mould to form an exact copy of the original, only it is a wax copy.

As the two sides/parts of rubber mould never closes exactly on to each other, a fine line is left on the wax copy.

This fine line is reproduced in the brass casting and called the 'parting line' or 'part line'.

By cutting the rubber mould on the sharp corners of an edge the parting line can be somewhat disguised but where the scalpel moves slightly off the line it is revealed as a 'part line'.

If you have to cut the mould across a flat face/part  the parting line will show up like a beacon.

Or where the rubber mould has to be cut to allow the release of the wax copy, such as where the slider meets the badge back this will also be seen easily.

'Part' or 'parting lines' can be removed either from the wax copy or from the brass cast object. Extra work and time to do, so often overlooked especially in an area hard to get at, ie behind the slider where it meets the back of the badge.

Another sign of a lost wax cast item are tiny balls of metal in corners of the object, these are air bubbles not removed in the investment process and form as tiny balls of metal and either fall off easily or are attached quite well to the finished casting and are often overlooked, therefore left on the object. They are tiny, though sometimes quite big.

There is one more but I will finish now.

If you can follow what I have written all good, if not ask away.

I spent 20 odd years in this industry so I think I am qualified to write all this down.

Regards,

Bob.

 

 

 

Hi Bob, I'm very impressed with your knowledge and thank you for taking the time to explain. It really seems to be something that one gains over time and experience handling these types of things, as well as tripping over a few fakes here and there to learn how to spot them. What is the second part you were going to explain? For a few days now I have been convinced that this is indeed a fake. Thankfully the person I got it from will provide a refund, no questions asked.