Jewish Battalion Cap Insignia - fake?

[DapperDave]

On 24/07/2024 at 17:25, FROGSMILE said:

Bob, reading between the lines I sense that I’ve inadvertently l caused you some mild upset.  To put the record straight I don’t doubt your credentials with regards to your time in an industry involving wax casting and did not for one moment intend to cause you any offence.  My point, such as it was, is that at the time of WW1 British (and Empire) Army badges were made by one of two manufacturing procedures, one official and one unofficial.

All the British official badges were die struck in an industry largely centred in Birmingham’s jewellery quarter, although some were also made in London, Edinburgh and Glasgow.  There were a great many companies, some of them still surviving.

The second method was relatively crude sand casting.  This latter was  generally on a small scale with a quality that varied widely.  Sometimes they were made by the native jewellers running stalls in regimental bazaars and often involved an original, British made badge used as the ‘master’ to form the mold.  The finished piece was rubbed down to remove any residue and then the front intensely polished to smooth out any rough details (the latter apparently often done by children).

The finished item was then sold to the soldiers. As they’d been smoothed they usually polished quite well.  The back of the sand cast badge was solid and often showed imperfections, but most importantly unlike a die struck badge there was no indented detail, and the badge was more substantial, weightier, as a result.  Soldiers in Egypt often bought these, as well as those in India.  They could also make collar badges, bandsmen’s music case badges and, especially, pagri badges for native mess Chokidaars and their boss the Khitmatgaar.

Between the two world wars Indian troops of some units began to wear more European style headdress in addition to the pagris that they had long used and that led to greater demand for better quality insignia (pagri badges for sepoys had been mostly sand cast before, with their European officers purchasing high quality badges from Britain).  This increase in demand led to the British-Indian Army arranging for dies to be made in India so that Indian regimental badges did not have to be made in and imported from Britain**.

It is these embryo manufacturing concerns that after 1947 developed their production and established their own clientele internationally.  They were aided in this in that they continued to use traditional techniques and metals and did not go for the maintenance free anodised aluminium ‘stabrite’ that was increasingly favoured in Britain and other modern markets.  Ergo, ironically the Indian and Pakistan industries have become the last bastion of old style badges, and it is these that form the bedrock of manufacture and supply for the restrike and reproduction markets.

Turning to wax casting.  In the now 50+ years that I’ve been collecting, and researching for my own interest, as a hobby, plus my time professionally in the Army supply chain for periods of time, I have never seen nor heard of any British military badges produced using wax casting.  If you have evidence to the contrary I will be intrigued to see it?  The badges posted by Dave and Max have the typical look of being die struck, but from old and well used dies where some of the crisp detail has been lost through extensive usage leaving a more smooth finish to both, indentation on the back and impression on the front. This is normal wear and tear and in any case favoured for reproduction because it gives each badge the veteran appearance of usage and wear.

** British-India favoured a system of ‘government factories’ using a model that had been abandoned in Britain (e.g. Royal Army Clothing Depot, Pimlico) in favour of private industry.  It is these government factories that before partition developed their own dies and insignia supply chain.

Very interesting stuff, Frogsmile. I appreciate your input. This is an entirely new world to me. But thankfully when I first opened the parcel with the Judea badge in it, even I a novice knew something wasn't quite right. It was too 'grainy' and that felt weird in a way I couldn't quite articulate. That an it had no patina of any kind was another red flag. 

[DapperDave]

On 25/07/2024 at 03:22, max7474 said:

Any genuine Judean badge would not be from a worn die as the production run for so very small - a  single battalion of less than a thousand men which only existed for a number of months.  Likewise they were worn for such a short period that they would not have had enough frequent polishing to cause a lot of surface wear.

It definitely complicates the task of determining whether badges are real or not based on a photo, alone. 

On 25/07/2024 at 03:46, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I think that’s true, hence David’s badge seems like a reproduction from a more modern die.

Agreed!

[DapperDave]

On 25/07/2024 at 17:04, Bob Davies said:

One more reason I think that this is a casting and not a stamping.

Screenshot below courtesy of  @DapperDave

It is the end of the bottom scroll.

I believe an original stamped badge has been used as the master pattern to make this badge.

It looks to have been filled in with filler to thicken it out to help with the flow of metal when casting it.

The line just in from the edge from 9 o'clock  to 12 o'clock is where the filler has not met with the original thin stamped scroll edge.

There is no reason for the line to have been created by the die set.

The triangular area from 6 o'clock to 9 o'clock does not look like an area struck by a die set. (I need to find a picture of the back of a similar shaped badge scroll, to compare)

Looking at the backs of other original cap badges, the scroll and letters are very well defined and hollow, not filled in like this is.

There are other marks on the back in other places that do not correspond with a die set.

Without having this badge in my hand and looking with my own eyes and loupe, I cannot be 100% certain, but I am sticking to my guns here.

All of my thoughts here are from experience in working in the casting game, to share with you all in an attempt to let you know what goes on in the art of deception.

Beware of 'Gordon Highlanders' and 'Welsh Guards' cap badges is all I will say.

Do not be concerned about upsetting me with any comment you have, anything we can all learn from each other about this topic is good, I do not claim to know it all here, whatsoever.

Dave sorry to disappoint you at this stage with my thoughts, what we need here is a genuine badge to compare yours against.

With my regards,

Bob.

Hi Bob, it's totally fine and I was suspecting it. I've been collecting since I was twelve and it's unusual for me to go to forums about an item, but it's usually because I'm not confident in an item's veracity. If anything, as I mentioned before, it's a good lesson to learn. Thankfully the vendor replied to me that I'd be refunded what I paid, so that's honorable. Onward and upward!

On 25/07/2024 at 18:09, mancpal said:

Weighing a bona-fide badge against a reproduction may be telling. I’m not sure why this has continued so long, all I see is a casting, certainly not stamped.

Simon

Agreed, though now the task ahead is finding a genuine piece to compare against it. I guess that's why it's a life-long passion. 

[DapperDave]

On 25/07/2024 at 18:49, FROGSMILE said:

Probably an original.

Sand cast with master for mold.

Those are really nice examples. Wow! Thanks for sharing. Very different from my piece. 

[DapperDave]

16 hours ago, battle of loos said:

good morning,

I have nevers seeing this badge come from ground of the battlefield.

regards

michel

Neither have I 

14 hours ago, max7474 said:

As I explained above it was not worn during the war so you won't find one on a battlefield.  It was finally authorised to be worn in December 1919 when the First Judeans were in Palestine and the 39th and 40th Battalions were folded into it. 

It's a cool snapshot of time really

[DapperDave]

12 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

There is another explanation for this cap badge that we have not considered yet.

As @max7474 informs us, there was only a need for a 1,000 odd of these badges.

The die sinkers would be able to make the die sets for the badge with no problem.

However did the seven long candles/fingers or whatever they are prove to be too fragile in actual use, that one or two or more of the original stamped badges had their backs filled to thicken them out and thereby give them more strength. Ergo, the 1,000 badges needed were sand cast as per @FROGSMILEs picture above (the badge on the plate/spit pattern, used for ease of moulding in sand, with a cope and drag)

So all we are left to find these days are the cast badges taken from the original stamping, with filled in backs, master patterns?

There are no stamped ones to be found as they were all cast?

The die sets long lost, along with the master patterns used for mould making, all bar the one pictured above?

Regards,

Bob.

It's interesting that you mention this because I did feel that even on this reproduction, the arms/candle holders are fragile in comparison with other badges of the period which have extremities. 

[Jerry B]

4 hours ago, DapperDave said:

That's fair and I do see your point. I'll definitely keep trying to get in contact with the British and Commonwealth Military Badge forum. I'm sure there's a way to reach them. I think I do need more experience handling insignia however. I mostly focused on the webbing kit until recently. 

That is quite interesting to know and it's new to me. Thank you. And yes, I'd be very interested in primary source materials if you don't mind sharing. Always good to gain a more accurate sense of the history. 

Check your spam, should be an email with the joining info

4 hours ago, DapperDave said:

That's fair and I do see your point. I'll definitely keep trying to get in contact with the British and Commonwealth Military Badge forum. I'm sure there's a way to reach them. I think I do need more experience handling insignia however. I mostly focused on the webbing kit until recently. 

That is quite interesting to know and it's new to me. Thank you. And yes, I'd be very interested in primary source materials if you don't mind sharing. Always good to gain a more accurate sense of the history. 

Check your spam, should be an email with the joining info

[Bob Davies]

15 hours ago, DapperDave said:

What is the second part you were going to explain?

Hi Dave,

a common fault/flaw on cast objects is called 'porosity'.

Usually when the item is cast, has cooled down and removed from the mould it will look quite good, however when the sprue is cut off, any flashing removed (fetteling) and cleaned up with fine abrasive and polished very fine holes may have appeared on the surface in certain parts, if not all over the back or the front.

Sometimes they are bigger holes but whatever their size, it is the result of gases being trapped in the cooling metal, or where there has been extreme shrinkage in the cooling metal.

On something the size of a cap badge it will be more than likely gasses trapped.

To try and get rid of them by filing them out or trying to hide them by applying a texture, is a futile task.

They are a certain pointer to the object having been cast.

Regards,

Bob.

 

[DapperDave]

On 27/07/2024 at 02:52, Jerry B said:

Check your spam, should be an email with the joining info

Check your spam, should be an email with the joining info

Good suggestion Jerry. I'll do that. 

[DapperDave]

On 27/07/2024 at 14:21, Bob Davies said:

Hi Dave,

a common fault/flaw on cast objects is called 'porosity'.

Usually when the item is cast, has cooled down and removed from the mould it will look quite good, however when the sprue is cut off, any flashing removed (fetteling) and cleaned up with fine abrasive and polished very fine holes may have appeared on the surface in certain parts, if not all over the back or the front.

Sometimes they are bigger holes but whatever their size, it is the result of gases being trapped in the cooling metal, or where there has been extreme shrinkage in the cooling metal.

On something the size of a cap badge it will be more than likely gasses trapped.

To try and get rid of them by filing them out or trying to hide them by applying a texture, is a futile task.

They are a certain pointer to the object having been cast.

Regards,

Bob.

 

Wow, the lengths folks will go to produce a fake with so many flaws. The texture of the surface on both sides did seem out of place to me compared with the other examples in my collection. Especially in-person. 

[Billy Girvan]

Hi not long joined your site, being a member of “The British and Commonwealth Military Badge Forum “ I can sympathise with your frustration in joining, took me several attempts over years before I finally managed it!

Dapper Dave if you require an introduction I would be happy to help, also why I found this thread of interest is that I have been reading a “Thread” on the Badge Forum to this very Topic the last day or so, also for your perusal I attach a genuine badge:- 

[Billy Girvan]

Well this badge has previously been accepted as a good badge, but looks very similar to that posted by Dapper Dave’s even down to the real bottom left scroll “dimple/nick” the front view candle are before the fingers branch out the top of central stand is tilted at an angle, as has been stated this is hobby with frustration built in!

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, Billy Girvan said:

Well this badge has previously been accepted as a good badge, but looks very similar to that posted by Dapper Dave’s even down to the real bottom left scroll “dimple/nick” the front view candle are before the fingers branch out the top of central stand is tilted at an angle, as has been stated this is hobby with frustration built in!

There are enough so-called genuine badges of the Jewish Battalion to form an entire Army.

[Billy Girvan]

Well Frogsmile can’t disagree with you there as have seen stacks of copies to this Rgt. But the only way we’re going to know is by seeking and comparing against known examples, and behind the badge there is a story, I asked the Badge Forum to re-assess this badge I have posted and was considered to be a good badge? It has some traits to that of Dapper Dave’s wish I was competent enough to put them side by side! 

Fakes abound to this badge and all I can say is they didn’t get materials quite correct as is the case for majority of copies, alas they are improving but the rear tends to be a give-away as are rough edges, not trying to say this is 100% correct as it needs a provenance badge to sit side by side, cannot see but one die as it didn’t have enough badges made to be worn out!

There is a similar Thread ongoing within the British and Commonwealth Badge Forum giving the 1st Judean’s History and its badge being approved by the King prior to going to Palestine, would be good to see photographs of the badge being worn there, 

All the best Billy

[FROGSMILE]

36 minutes ago, Billy Girvan said:

Well Frogsmile can’t disagree with you there as have seen stacks of copies to this Rgt. But the only way we’re going to know is by seeking and comparing against known examples, and behind the badge there is a story, I asked the Badge Forum to re-assess this badge I have posted and was considered to be a good badge? It has some traits to that of Dapper Dave’s wish I was competent enough to put them side by side! 

Fakes abound to this badge and all I can say is they didn’t get materials quite correct as is the case for majority of copies, alas they are improving but the rear tends to be a give-away as are rough edges, not trying to say this is 100% correct as it needs a provenance badge to sit side by side, cannot see but one die as it didn’t have enough badges made to be worn out!

There is a similar Thread ongoing within the British and Commonwealth Badge Forum giving the 1st Judean’s History and its badge being approved by the King prior to going to Palestine, would be good to see photographs of the badge being worn there, 

All the best Billy

Good luck with this Billy.  I lost the enthusiasm for worrying about what are genuine and what are copies long ago.  The other forum is the best place to pursue it.

[michaeldr]

12 hours ago, Billy Girvan said:

would be good to see photographs of the badge being worn there

These pictures can be found on this website https://www.jewsfww.uk/jewish-museum-london-jewish-military-museum-collections-jewish-legion-1183.php where there is a large collection of photographs etc. [However, when a cap badge is to be seen, then in 99% of the cases, it is that of the RF]

  

[Billy Girvan]

Hi Michaeldr, brilliant photographs and thank you for posting these, was aware the Ryl Fusiliers badge was worn and the Menorah was promised by Lord Derby in 1917, that it wasn’t actually given until after the War and before departure for Palestine,it is good to see the badge worn! These Servicemen must have been well Proud!

Thanks again Billy