Ian C Posted 24 July Share Posted 24 July Hi I have seen over the years, cases whereby the CWGC have erected one of their headstones because the original family headstone is no longer considered to be a suitable memorial, at least I think that is the phrase I have seen used. On Monday, I took the ferry out to the now deserted Scattery Island that sites about 3 miles off land in the Shannon River, in the west of Ireland. I knew there was one casualty from WW1 buried there and sought him out. The photo below is what I found, there is an undated Graves Registration Report Form on James' CWGC entry from C1920/30's. As you can see it does not give his date of death, his rank or in fact anything else other that he was RNVR, but presumably that could apply to a wide span of years not just WW1. I've a mind to contact the CWGC to ask them to consider erecting one of their headstones as I feel the one in situ is not a suitable memorial to James. Does anyone have any thoughts on this or would I be wasting my time? Regards IanC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted 24 July Share Posted 24 July a point I made on a similar subject recently, the original headstones that were , family headstones , maintained by the family, that were not IWG/CWGC put up, nowadays the family may no longer survive or even be known of by younger generations, could fall into disrepair . Is it time for the CWGC to take them back over? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonraker Posted 24 July Share Posted 24 July War graves are not a strong point for me, which may explain why I'm puzzled. CWGC notes just one war grave, to Michael Joseph Walsh, on Scattery Island, whereas your photo relates to James Walsh. Is James buried there, or is the inscription merely a memorial to him? Did James die during wartime? Has the stone fallen over? If so, can it be reinstated? It doesn't look in that bad a condition, and one presumes that the family wanted its deceased members, if not buried together, then commemorated together. At least there's scope for research into the relationships between Michael, James, Catherine and the others named. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithmroberts Posted 24 July Share Posted 24 July Has anyone been able to find a service record for Gunner Michael Joseph Walsh that would fit with the CWGC record? There is insufficient information to trace a James Walsh. Ian C - do you have any further information to help us with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted 24 July Author Share Posted 24 July ******, I hadn't seen the discrepancy in the names!!!! This is the grave stone mentioned on the Grave Registration form, as you can see the Bridget and John mentioned on the form are remembered on the stone. As some of you may know the Irish had/have a great love of giving a child one first name and then calling them a totally different!! I have had a very quick look at the 1901 & 1911 census, but nothing leaps out immediately. Much more research required I think, but that will have to wait until tomorrow!! Regards IanC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 24 July Share Posted 24 July (edited) BTW the stone was already laid flat at the date of the GRRF [after the printers mark of 11/30 I would suggest] and the James WALSH, RNVR, inscription post-dates the GRRF too Michael Joseph WALSH, "HMS Vivid" Died 1917 = I'm struggling to see a physical commemoration [so that could be worth enquiring about] - See also WFA/Fold3 pension records - HMS "Woulfe" James Joseph WALSH, 153/M, RNVR, HMS "Vivid" - See WFA/Fold3 pension records - made a disability claim and then seems to have been recorded as Overseas c. 28/10/31 [Southern Ireland would normally use a Region 13 reference] Related? Or is that merely a coincidence and far too easy and a rookie's mistake? More research required! Good luck!! M Edited 25 July by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC78 Posted 25 July Share Posted 25 July (edited) It's my understanding that a memorial is sufficient as long as it has a legible inscription of the casualty's name, there is no obligation to record date of death or military service. When CWGC find that a private memorial "no longer provides adequate commemoration" this is probably due to weathering of the original inscription, or something like that. The following is a WW2 war grave near me which is marked only by a small black vase with the man's name: https://www.twgpp.org/photograph/view/2103378 That said, there would be no harm in contacting CWGC and asking the question anyway, if nothing else you might get a more detailed answer and gain a bit of insight into their decision making process. With regard to the naming discrepancy, it might be worth doing a bit more research. I have found examples where a man has been commemorated at the wrong grave, or by the wrong name, or even where a case of mistaken identity has led to the wrong man being commemorated! On 24/07/2024 at 20:55, chaz said: a point I made on a similar subject recently, the original headstones that were , family headstones , maintained by the family, that were not IWG/CWGC put up, nowadays the family may no longer survive or even be known of by younger generations, could fall into disrepair . Is it time for the CWGC to take them back over? As said above, that kind of already happens when a headstone becomes badly weathered or damaged and CWGC seek permission to place one of their own headstones on a grave. But if the original headstone is still ok then why would they need to do anything? They cannot simply claim ownership of a grave or do as they please. Edited 26 July by PaulC78 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC78 Posted 25 July Share Posted 25 July 22 hours ago, keithmroberts said: Has anyone been able to find a service record for Gunner Michael Joseph Walsh that would fit with the CWGC record? There are a couple of pension cards, this one says "man an officer", the other has the same details but gives a service number "181158". (Source: Fold3) This is the service record, the last entry is a promotion to Acting Gunner in September 1912: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6703500 Death registered at Kilrush for Michael J Walsh, age 37, Gunner RN, cause of death was pulmonary tb 1 year: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/ce31345606973 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 25 July Share Posted 25 July 1 hour ago, PaulC78 said: That said, there would be no harm in contacting CWGC and asking the question anyway, if nothing else you might get a more detailed answer and gain a bit of insight into their decision making process. Ian, Yes please do give it a go, and if you do get an answer I know it's likely Paul & certainly I would be interested in it. 1 hour ago, PaulC78 said: There are a couple of pension cards, this one says "man an officer", the other has the same details but gives a service number "181158". (Source: Fold3) This is the service record, the last entry is a promotion to Acting Gunner in September 1912: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6703500 Death registered at Kilrush for Michael J Walsh, age 37, Gunner RN, cause of death was pulmonary tb 1 year: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/ce31345606973 This card refers to O Br - which is rather ambiguous, Officers' or Overseas Branch? I guess we might be tempted to suspect the former given the Man an Officer notation - but that does seem strange and we can see it seems Case Put Away The claim references of DP and DPO will be Dependants' Pensions Office and the W for his surname This is the other paired card with that 181158 number Image thanks to WFA/Fold3 I'm not seeing any definitive confirmation that his mother made a successful claim ??? I wonder if HMS "Woulfe" is actually HMS "Wolfe" ??? for which I am coming up with a 12" gun monitor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_General_Wolfe_(1915) ??? [so after his 1912 service] At least the ON 181158 has allowed us to access his earlier record. I wonder if @horatio2 might perhaps be able to confirm/clarify/enlighten us please ??? and on any relationship with HMS "Vivid" used by CWGC [which also seemed to be for his 1912 Promotion to Act. Gunner] which I think is a likely an admin depot ??? From his DC Image thanks to irishgenealogy.ie He is recorded as RN Gunner suggesting being in service but I am not sure the Navy wanted TB sufferers so it rather seems quite possible that he might perhaps have been discharged in the preceeding 12 months on medical grounds, hence dying at home, but I am puzzled as to why we haven't found another service record nor a disability pension claim by him ??? But at least from an early date CWGC seem to have been satisfied he was to be commemorated, and he still is on their site even if not on the ground. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2743436/michael-joseph-walsh M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilbury Welsh Posted 26 July Share Posted 26 July Hi Ian C, having an interest in the surname of Walsh, I enjoy following threads like this and helping out where I can. With regards the first image whilst I can read the later additional inscriptions, I'm struggling with the original one. Do you have other images which are clearer or perhaps a written note which you could include. Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 26 July Share Posted 26 July (edited) 4 minutes ago, Ilbury Welsh said: With regards the first image whilst I can read the later additional inscriptions, I'm struggling with the original one. Do you have other images which are clearer or perhaps a written note which you could include. See the CWGC record [which does not include the later inscriptions] https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2743436/michael-joseph-walsh/#&gid=1&pid=2 M Edited 26 July by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Pegum Posted 26 July Share Posted 26 July There are two features which suggest that Michael Joseph Walsh is not buried in that grave on Scattery Island. 1. Pace Ian’s comment on names, I think it is unlikely that Michael Joseph would have the name ‘James’ on his gravestone, even if he had been known as such in the family. 2. Michael Joseph is shown on the death certificate as “R.N.”, this information having been supplied by the family. They would not be likely to have put “R.N.V.R.” on his gravestone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 26 July Share Posted 26 July (edited) 22 minutes ago, Michael Pegum said: There are two features which suggest that Michael Joseph Walsh is not buried in that grave on Scattery Island. 1. Pace Ian’s comment on names, I think it is unlikely that Michael Joseph would have the name ‘James’ on his gravestone, even if he had been known as such in the family. 2. Michael Joseph is shown on the death certificate as “R.N.”, this information having been supplied by the family. They would not be likely to have put “R.N.V.R.” on his gravestone. Without any other detailed knowledge of the case I might suspect Michael Joseph WALSH is likely buried in that plot given his place of death and the CWGC record [I would hope the could be surviving burial/grave records somewhere that might confirm/clarify - commonly a challenge to discover] - see CWGC's fairly contemporary record for MJW. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2743436/michael-joseph-walsh/#&gid=1&pid=1 which however also offers a potentially different relative to the PIC. wife -v- mother and https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2743436/michael-joseph-walsh/#&gid=1&pid=2 ... Who is Mrs WALSH - v- Mrs Mary WALSH? I also suspect that James WALSH is possibly a different man and from a different [non-war period] date. ??? The clearly later [much later??] inscriptions may easily have been added by someone who was not familiar with the niceties of the military situation [RN -v- RNVR], the grave and/or possibly the names = quite a little puzzle. Only a burial/grave record(s) seems likely to clarify. M Edited 26 July by Matlock1418 typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted 26 July Author Share Posted 26 July Hi All Just a quick add, which I think clears up a few questions, I received a post yesterday on another forum where I had placed a query about this topic, the post was: Irish Examiner Oct 12 1917 Mr M Walsh Navel Officer The remains of Mr Michael Walsh Warrant Officer Royal Navy .....interment taking place in the saintly island of Scattery among the chief mourners was brother Capt. J Walsh RNVR Regards IanC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 26 July Share Posted 26 July 1 hour ago, Ian C said: Just a quick add, which I think clears up a few questions, I received a post yesterday on another forum where I had placed a query about this topic, the post was: Irish Examiner Oct 12 1917 Mr M Walsh Navel Officer The remains of Mr Michael Walsh Warrant Officer Royal Navy .....interment taking place in the saintly island of Scattery among the chief mourners was brother Capt. J Walsh RNVR Thanks for posting that Ian = Extremely handy. It does seem to address a number of issues that have arisen - except perhaps whether the lack of permanent marker to Michael Joseph WALSH is a shame and that something more might now be in order for him! Same question as in your OP, but for different man!! M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC78 Posted 26 July Share Posted 26 July (edited) Unless there is another grave in the burial ground, I think there is a compelling case here for Michael Joseph not being properly commemorated. To add to what Ian found above... Report of Michael's death in the Kilrush Herald and Kilkee Gazette, 05 October 1917: (Source: FindMyPast) Further info on his brother James in the same paper, 23 March 1917: (Source: FindMyPast) It would appear that James died in 1956, age 73: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/ddb3632281821 I think a bit more digging is needed, but it would be worth bringing this to the attention of CWGC. Edited 26 July by PaulC78 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted 28 July Author Share Posted 28 July Thanks everyone for your help with this. All the info posted here plus other stuff posted on a genealogy forum of which I am a member leaves me in no doubt that Michael Joseph Walsh is buried on Scattery Island and that his last resting place is not marked in any way. I shall be contacting the CWGC this week to bring this to their attention and will post updates as and when. Again, thanks for your help. Regards IanC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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