Trying to establish which regiment my grandfather was in .

[karinn]

I have been trying to do some research on the background of my grandfather. Sadly I don’t have a definite birth date but think his year of birth could be 1890. I have a picture of him in what appears to be a Scottish regiment and what appears to be sections of a Short service record  which appears to not have been fully completed with dates. 
the service number on the form appears to be 76359. My grandfather was born in the county of Wigtownshire so I am assuming he may have been in one of the border regiments.

 Would be most grateful if there is anyone on this site that can identify the uniform or service number or offer any other information. I have tried going through Ancesrty and Scotlands people with no luck. I can’t remember where I was able to get the service number from . 

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. It looks like Royal Engineers (T) Glasgow Group.
There is a deal index card for that number, ©️ Ancestry.

[6RRF]

While the paperwork certainly relates to service in the Royal Engineers, the gentleman in the photograph appears to be wearing the glengarry and badge of the Royal Scots Fusiliers, which would also be suggested by the badges on his shoulder-straps - and not inconsistent with a Wigtonshire origin

[karinn]

Thank you for you input, much appreciated. 

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, 6RRF said:

While the paperwork certainly relates to service in the Royal Engineers, the gentleman in the photograph appears to be wearing the glengarry and badge of the Royal Scots Fusiliers, which would also be suggested by the badges on his shoulder-straps - and not inconsistent with a Wigtonshire origin

Yes I think so too, I wonder if it’s definitely referring to the same man.

Images: NE Medals.

Edited 26 July by FROGSMILE

[karinn]

Thank you for your post, grateful for any information I can get. 

[FROGSMILE]

19 minutes ago, karinn said:

Thank you for your post, grateful for any information I can get. 

The ‘shoulder title’ (RSF and grenade) is configured as for a regular soldier rather than a part-time Territorial.  It suggests he might’ve been a regular before the war and then perhaps reenlisted with the Royal Engineers as an older man during the war.  Unless it’s some other family member?

Edited 26 July by FROGSMILE

[BillyH]

There are a lot of service papers for 76359 William Murray. He appears to have served in a R.E. Signal Company in France and later in Egypt. He probably served pre-war in the R.E. with a service no. 9247 in what appears to read 'Scottish Reserve Army Troops Signals Coy.'

Don't have time to look into it any more at the moment, but it does look unlikely that the photo is of the same man?

BillyH.

[karinn]

Thanks for your post, looks like you might be right and it’s a different William Murray. There’s so little personal information on the service record form, age, DOB, address . The signature on the form looked like the writing I have on a card( from what I thought was) from my grandfather to his Aunt, it said he was waiting to hear if he was being shipped to France. Unfortunately it looks like he ran out of room to write his name and just wrote Wm. I know my grandfather worked on a farm before going to war . Like many other people, I wish I had asked more questions when he was alive. He died when I was a young girl and I can’t remember his birth date, so angry at myself for not doing that. No DOB on his headstone either just how old he was. I live in NZ so not that easy to check information easily even via the internet so I’m very grateful for your time and the information you have provided. 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, karinn said:

Thanks for your post, looks like you might be right and it’s a different William Murray. There’s so little personal information on the service record form, age, DOB, address . The signature on the form looked like the writing I have on a card( from what I thought was) from my grandfather to his Aunt, it said he was waiting to hear if he was being shipped to France. Unfortunately it looks like he ran out of room to write his name and just wrote Wm. I know my grandfather worked on a farm before going to war . Like many other people, I wish I had asked more questions when he was alive. He died when I was a young girl and I can’t remember his birth date, so angry at myself for not doing that. No DOB on his headstone either just how old he was. I live in NZ so not that easy to check information easily even via the internet so I’m very grateful for your time and the information you have provided. 

This is how his insignia would have appeared Karin.

It looks like he was a member of the specialised ‘Signal Service’ of the RE.  These men ran the communications for the formation headquarters using a mixture of telephone, morse and, increasingly as the war went on, early radio technology.  They also provided a motorcycle dispatch rider signal service.

As a means of identification the RE signallers wore a blue and white armband. 

Edited 26 July by FROGSMILE

[knittinganddeath]

44 minutes ago, karinn said:

No DOB on his headstone either

A marriage or death certificate might have his DOB and address. If you have more information about his wife, you might be able to trace him through her. If he was married before he enlisted, he might have listed his wife as next-of-kin on the attestation form and you could then know that it is the correct man because of her.

[6RRF]

1 hour ago, karinn said:

Thanks for your post, looks like you might be right and it’s a different William Murray. There’s so little personal information on the service record form, age, DOB, address . The signature on the form looked like the writing I have on a card( from what I thought was) from my grandfather to his Aunt, it said he was waiting to hear if he was being shipped to France. Unfortunately it looks like he ran out of room to write his name and just wrote Wm. I know my grandfather worked on a farm before going to war . Like many other people, I wish I had asked more questions when he was alive. He died when I was a young girl and I can’t remember his birth date, so angry at myself for not doing that. No DOB on his headstone either just how old he was. I live in NZ so not that easy to check information easily even via the internet so I’m very grateful for your time and the information you have provided. 

If you can let us know how old he was - or any other family information - I can have a look for him on Scotland's People

[BillyH]

I have had another look at his service papers and they confirm the following information about William Murray :

Born 1887  :  home address South Street, Port William, Wigtownshire  :  next of kin, his mother Mary Murray at the same address  :  He was an Engine Fitter 

He originally enlisted on 14.9.14 as a Territorial in the "Scottish Army Troops Signal Corps (T)"  but on 11.1.15 he was discharged in order to re-enlist as a regular with his new service no.76359

Although the medal card doesn't show it he did also qualify for a 1914/15 Star - and this is confirmed on the medal rolls.

BillyH.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

@karinn

The golden rule about trying to discover an ancestor's military history, is to nail down your genealogy first.

 The Ancestry records for 76359 are here:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/1357352:1219?tid=&pid=&queryId=f172b0df-d4b1-4dc2-ad5b-ce08d5d82afd&_phsrc=bDw2290&_phstart=successSource

and here:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/1357353:1219?tid=&pid=&queryId=69923f6a-7de2-4652-aa5f-40fb159fb969&_phsrc=bDw2294&_phstart=successSource

 

You mention that your William Murray may have been born in 1890, yet the record you quote gives 76359's age at 27 and 3 months in September 1914, so he would have been born in about June 1887.
How do other facts stack up?

This man attested in Saltcoats, some 70 miles away from Wigtown. His next of kin is Mrs M. Murray of South Street, Port William, Wigtownshire.

80% of the attestation forms for Great War soldiers were destroyed in the Blitz in 1940, so you must understand there is only a 1 in 5 chance that your relative's records have survived.  Ancestry list 255 records for a William Murray, so there must have been another 1000 whose records did not survive.

You must nail down your genealogy first, that means getting a birth certificate and a marriage certificate, then his appearances in the censuses of 1891, 1901 & 1911. 1921 might be useful too.

 

[corisande]

27 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

The golden rule about trying to discover an ancestor's military history, is to nail down your genealogy first.

I am not sure if this helps or hinders. An Ancestry tree has the man on the left, man on right is OP here

That tree - click- also gives

• 02 Jun 1887 • Port William, Wigtownshire, Scotland

• Degree 12 Apr 1906 • Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland.

• His military no. Was 76359. Royal Engineers, he was a permanent Lineman.

• Marriage 08 Jul 1919 • Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland, Mary Isabella Learmont 1885–1976

• Abt. 1930 • Xinavane, Maputo, Mozambique. He became Chief engineer of the sugar mill in Xinavane. He worked there until 3 June 1955, and received a pocket watch inscribed with this date.

• Death 1973 • Benoni, Gauteng, South Africa

 

 

 

 

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I'm sure the OP will be able to immediately confirm or refute that her grandfather is that man. It's a pretty unique career path.

Let's wait for daybreak in NZ.

 

Edited 26 July by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[karinn]

6 hours ago, corisande said:

I am not sure if this helps or hinders. An Ancestry tree has the man on the left, man on right is OP here

That tree - click- also gives

• 02 Jun 1887 • Port William, Wigtownshire, Scotland

• Degree 12 Apr 1906 • Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland.

• His military no. Was 76359. Royal Engineers, he was a permanent Lineman.

• Marriage 08 Jul 1919 • Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland, Mary Isabella Learmont 1885–1976

• Abt. 1930 • Xinavane, Maputo, Mozambique. He became Chief engineer of the sugar mill in Xinavane. He worked there until 3 June 1955, and received a pocket watch inscribed with this date.

• Death 1973 • Benoni, Gauteng, South Africa

 

Thank you Corisande for this information. The photo and information you have shared confirms the service record I found is not that of my grandfather. Your input is much appreciated. 

The only correct piece of information I was able to find on either Ancestry or Scotlands people was a marriage certificate which gave me the age he married (30) , his parents names , Andrew Murray & Jeanie Murray nee Cochrane. My grandmother was Jane Cunningham and the marriage took place Stoneykirk church April 29th 1922. I know for certain the family worked in and around that area mostly as farmhands. 
I also took a photo of the headstone, at Stoneykirk cemetery last time I was back in Scotland , sadly no birth dates on that , just age at death. I have to admit to giving up with my searches on both ancestry and Scotlands people after three months, I was getting frustrated at getting Virtually nowhere. It feels like a fluke that I even found the marriage certificate but even with that information, it didn’t lead me to a birth certificate for my grandfather. Perhaps I am just not skilled enough to get the best out of their systems. 

 Anyway, I thank you for clarification and I can stop pursuing the service record, it is obvious from the information you have supplied that it is not my grandfather. Thank you once again. 
 

 

 

 

 

[karinn]

1 minute ago, karinn said:

 

Correction Corisande, grandfather was 31 when he married, not that that makes any difference but just checked the marriage cert again. 

[karinn]

7 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

@karinn

The golden rule about trying to discover an ancestor's military history, is to nail down your genealogy first.

 The Ancestry records for 76359 are here:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/1357352:1219?tid=&pid=&queryId=f172b0df-d4b1-4dc2-ad5b-ce08d5d82afd&_phsrc=bDw2290&_phstart=successSource

and here:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/1357353:1219?tid=&pid=&queryId=69923f6a-7de2-4652-aa5f-40fb159fb969&_phsrc=bDw2294&_phstart=successSource

 

You mention that your William Murray may have been born in 1890, yet the record you quote gives 76359's age at 27 and 3 months in September 1914, so he would have been born in about June 1887.
How do other facts stack up?

This man attested in Saltcoats, some 70 miles away from Wigtown. His next of kin is Mrs M. Murray of South Street, Port William, Wigtownshire.

80% of the attestation forms for Great War soldiers were destroyed in the Blitz in 1940, so you must understand there is only a 1 in 5 chance that your relative's records have survived.  Ancestry list 255 records for a William Murray, so there must have been another 1000 whose records did not survive.

You must nail down your genealogy first, that means getting a birth certificate and a marriage certificate, then his appearances in the censuses of 1891, 1901 & 1911. 1921 might be useful too.

 

Thank you for your information. I have just read the input from Corisande and the information he supplied pretty much confirms the service form I found is not that of my grandfathers. Appreciate your your information , so thank you. 

[karinn]

Thank you Billy H , new post from Corisande would confirm that the service papers I found are not those of my grandfather. Thank you for your input though. Like a lot of people, I have probably left it a bit too late to pursue information like this, I am in my early 70s . At the end of the day, I remember my grandfather as lovely man , always kind and caring so that is all that matters and it’s the best kind of memory to have. Living in NZ for the past 30 years my interest was spiked by my brother who had thought my grandfather was part of the Galipolli campaign, he had no information to back this up so I don’t know where he got that from. Anzac Day is a huge thing here in NZ , I go to the commemorations every year , they are very moving and bring home the terrible sacrifice so many young men made. Thank you once again for taking the time to respond to my post. 

[karinn]

Thank you DBYs for your contribution, much appreciated. As you may see from my other responses, I was getting virtually nowhere trying to pin down the information I was after, birth cert, census records. I think you are correct, an accurate birth cert is the first thing that I needed I was just bombarded with too many options when I tried to find that. I gave up after three months totally frustrated and as I mentioned in a previous post, perhaps not of the correct mindset to locate this kind of information. Thank you though for taking the time to respond to my post. 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Don't give up karinn,

There may be  information out there somewhere, and your chance of finding it improves markedly if you can link it to known factual information.
Start off with some certificates, and census returns and build out from there.

Whereas 80% of the British Army service records were destroyed, The series of Medal Index Cards and Medal Rolls are fairly complete, so those will need to be consulted at some point.

However, there are 718 William Murrays with Medal Index Cards on Ancestry.
But, as 6RRF mentioned upthread, he feels the photo shows a man in the Royal Scots Fusiliers.
718 candidates suddenly becomes 28 (of which 3 have a middle name, reducing the list to 25).
20% of those will have a  surviving service record, and can possibly be excluded, leaving about 20 possibilities for you to researchn future.
That's not an impossible number to consider.
There are other avenues to explore - one of which are Absent Voters Lists.
These were special military electoral registers  compiled from 1918 onwards for every constituency.
These list all serving men (and women) with their home addresses, rank, number & unit/regiment.

Unfortunately, I don't think one has survived for Wigtownshire, but ones exist for Glasgow and Dundee.
Searching those lists for all the William Murrays would make a big dent in your list of possibilities.

Local Newspapers also often list men's details, and without searching those, you won't know what information is contained in them.

Good luck

[karinn]

Thank you DByS, very useful information and areas to research further. 
I contacted Dumfries and Galloway council offices in 2021 and a very nice genealogy expert on the council supplied me with the birth dates of my grandfather and grandmother , identified from me supplying dates of death and location of burial. The birth date and details given by her for my grandfather is 7/5/1890 at Balyett Farm , Inch Parish,Wigtownshire and  details of his parents fits in with that date being correct, however, Census records for 1891 show William Murray being born  in 1891 at High Balyett. The location appears correct but there is a discrepancy in year of birth. I have put both dates  and YOB in the search engine when trying to get information from Ancestry and Scotlands people, the census records being the only thing that gave me the information I have ( as above). The census records do show siblings, some of which I had vaguely heard of , two that I knew are both missing but they could have been younger than my grandfather. It can become frustrating when you have to doubt the information that is sometimes contradicted by other information. Thank you anyway, your input has been really helpful. 

 

[corisande]

I still think this is solvable.

What we have to do is take away any assumptions you have made and get the bare bones

• Am I right in thinking that all you know is his name was William Murray and that he came from Wigtownshire
• Am I right in thinking that the photo in your original post is one you have of him (or is held by someone in your family)
• Am I right in thinking that the man with RE service no 76359 & his service record is a rabbit that has appeared somewhere/somehow in your research on the grounds that he came from Wigtownshire
• The genealogist at Dumfries council gave his birth as  7/5/1890 at Balyett Farm , Inch Parish,Wigtownshire and  details of his parents fits in with that date being correct. Did you give that genealogist have any more information than we have above. I wondered how you know that the names of his parents fit, who were his parents? I can get that birth cert, but little point unless it takes us forward
• Did he die in Scotland, or did he emigrate to NZ
• Who did he marry. In other words who was your grannie and what do you know about her. The Marriage cert would also unlock  the puzzle
• What does your father's birth cert say about his parents (that would give you your grannie and he maiden name - which in turn could get their marriage cert

We need take this one step at a time to get the answer

Edited 27 July by corisande

[corisande]

And another way of looking at the problem is to look for all birth of William Murray between (say) 1880 and 1899 in Wigtownshire

Which gives  22 births. Of which 4 were the Wigtown itself see below. The birth certs are  all on ScotlandPeople , but they do not actually mean anything without more info. It  is not difficult to find marriage certs once the right birth cert is found

My initial fact that needs clarified is did he come from Wigtownshire or from Wigtown in particular

I assume the Dumfries genealogist came up with the Balyett farm birth for 1890 as it is the most likely if he came specifically from the town of Wigtown. If he actually came from the county of Wigtownshire, then the are 18 other men to consider

 

MURRAY WILLIAM (mother MCWILLIAM) born 1884  at Wigtown Parish

MURRAY WILLIAM (mother HANNAH) born 1884 Wigtown Parish

MURRAY WILLIAM (mother COCHRANE)  born 1890 at Inch (Wigtown) Parish

MURRAY WILLIAM (mother Gibson) born 1899 Wigtown Parish