corisande Posted 27 July Share Posted 27 July So to try to put this thread back on the right course. we can forget about the RE man it is a red herring we need to concentrate on the photo, who as I understand it is in Royal Scots Fusiliers and (probably) a pre war regular Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6RRF Posted 27 July Share Posted 27 July 11 hours ago, karinn said: Living in NZ for the past 30 years my interest was spiked by my brother who had thought my grandfather was part of the Galipolli campaign, he had no information to back this up so I don’t know where he got that from. Anzac Day is a huge thing here in NZ , I go to the commemorations every year , they are very moving and bring home the terrible sacrifice so many young men made. Not impossible. The portrait which you provided shows a soldier of the Royal Scots Fusiliers. Only one battalion of the regiment served at Gallipoli - 1/4th which was part of the 52nd [Lowland] Division. This needs a note of caution in that the battalion was a Territorial one and the portrait appears to lack the letter T on the shoulder straps, but this may not be decisive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 27 July Share Posted 27 July (edited) I attach a spreadsheet in .csv format of all the William Murrays with RSF service with a MIC or a service record. It may help the OP to exclude any candidates. Service numbers are in order of regiment, so if the RSF is the second regiment, the RSF number will be the second number in the cell. (On opening in Excel, column widths and heights will need adjusting to get the spacing right. The forum doesn't allow transfer of Excel files) William Murray.csv Edited 27 July by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karinn Posted 27 July Author Share Posted 27 July 21 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: It looks like he was a member of the specialised ‘Signal Service’ of the RE. These men ran the communications for the formation headquarters using a mixture of telephone, morse and, increasingly as the war went on, early radio technology. They also provided a motorcycle dispatch rider signal service. As a means of identification the RE signallers wore a blue and white armband. 21 hours ago, knittinganddeath said: A marriage or death certificate might have his DOB and address. If you have more information about his wife, you might be able to trace him through her. If he was married before he enlisted, he might have listed his wife as next-of-kin on the attestation form and you could then know that it is the correct man because of her. Thank once again for your input, amazing photos. From one of the other forum members, it looks like the service number I have found is not that of my grandfather. In all my searches via ancestry and Scotlands people all I could find was a marriage certificate, through that I was able to find out the. Name of his parents . Definite information : he was married 22/4/1922 Stoneykirk to Jean Cunningham. His parents were Andrew Murray ( my father’s name too) and Jeanie Murray nee Cochrane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 27 July Share Posted 27 July (edited) 1 hour ago, corisande said: The genealogist at Dumfries council gave his birth as 7/5/1890 at Balyett Farm , Inch Parish,Wigtownshire and details of his parents fits in with that date being correct. Did you give that genealogist have any more information than we have above. I wondered how you know that the names of his parents fit, who were his parents? I can get that birth cert, but little point unless it takes us forward Did he die in Scotland, or did he emigrate to NZ Who did he marry. In other words who was your grannie and what do you know about her. The Marriage cert would also unlock the puzzle What does your father's birth cert say about his parents (that would give you your grannie and he maiden name - which in turn could get their marriage cert Sorry to bang on, but I am trying to establish exactly how to build the tree. have you built your search on what the genealogist at Dumfries gave you or do you know something about his birth from other sources did he die in Scotland as far as you know what does your father's birth cert say about his parents he was married 22/4/1922 Stoneykirk to Jean Cunningham. How do you know that? Edited 27 July by corisande Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karinn Posted 27 July Author Share Posted 27 July Corisande. The facts I do know are, the photo of the man with the Glengarry is definitely my grandfather, apart from looking older, he never changed in looks . The photo came from my brother who has little else in his possession regarding family history other than later family photos. I know for a fact that the details on the wedding cert are correct and that my grandmother was definitely Jane Murdoch Cunningham. I also remember that the families on both sides lived and worked in and around Stoneykirk, Portpatrick, Inch Parish all located in and around Stranraer in Wigtownshire. No one actually lived in Wigtown to my knowledge. They were all farm labourers I believe. High Balyett is located in this area. Fact my grandfather, grandmother and father are all buried in Stoneykirk too would imply that there is a strong familial connection to that area . The wedding certificate I found is in my opinion 100% accurate. the Dumfries genealogist did not supply me with any other information and yes the Balyett connection came firstly from her the again on the 1891 census. MURRAY William ( mother Cochrane ) born 1890 at Inch ( Wigtown) Parish is in my opinion correct. I agree the man on the Service form that I have is definitely NOT my grandfather. You stated that the man in the photo I do have is in the RSF and probably a pre war regular, I am sorry , I don’t know what that means. I will try and attach the photo of the wedding cert that I have , as I said , I am 100% sure this is one positive family connection. Also a photo of the headstone from Stoneykirk graveyard. Thank you again for all the effort you have put into this for me, it’s been so helpful and very interesting finding out from you and the others on this form all the information you have supplied. Cannot thank you all enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karinn Posted 27 July Author Share Posted 27 July Forgot to say, my grandfather never lived in NZ, he died in Leswalt Wigtownshire Scotland at age 80 when I was working as a young nurse in Glasgow. never left the region other than when he was in the war is my understanding. If the 1891 census is correct he had 4 siblings at that time, another two came after him , a Margaret and Robert Murray. I knew them but not the others. Thanks DByS will try and download the files. Really appreciate your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 27 July Share Posted 27 July Thank you very much for the clarification. Sometimes one has to be cruel to be kind I will see where we can get to with his service record using your input as a basis And to answer "the RSF and probably a pre war regular," Sorry shorthand we use on the forum "Royal Scots Fusiliers" the he was already a serving Regular Army soldier when war broke out in 1914 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karinn Posted 27 July Author Share Posted 27 July Thanks for that clarification. Have just been looking through my pile of family documents and found the marriage certificate of my mother and father, they married in Germany 1947 . I note that my father was still in the army at that time as the Marr took place in Brunswick. There is a Rank or Profession section on the certificate: # 14555041 L/ Cpl RE .Has Active Service Abroad BAOR whatever that means. I don’t know if that would help identify my grandfather with a next of kin ? I can add the cert if you think it would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6RRF Posted 27 July Share Posted 27 July 15 minutes ago, karinn said: Thanks for that clarification. Have just been looking through my pile of family documents and found the marriage certificate of my mother and father, they married in Germany 1947 . I note that my father was still in the army at that time as the Marr took place in Brunswick. There is a Rank or Profession section on the certificate: # 14555041 L/ Cpl RE .Has Active Service Abroad BAOR whatever that means. I don’t know if that would help identify my grandfather with a next of kin ? I can add the cert if you think it would help. It means that your father was a Lance Corporal in the Royal Engineers, serving in the BAOR [British Army of the Rhine] - essentially an occupation force after WW2 facing off against the Russians. Although it doesn't actually help with your grandfather it may help explain the earlier error mixing him up with the Royal Engineers rather than the Royal Scots Fusiliers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 27 July Share Posted 27 July So to plot William Murray's life for anyone trying to connect him to the Royal Scots Fusilier in the photo 1882 Feb 9 his parents Andrew and Jeannie Murray married at Stranraer 1890 May 7 . William Murray born Balyett 1891 census at High Balyett Farm Cottage This is certainly him. Household Members (Name) Age Relationship Andrew Murray 35 Head Jane Murray 34 Wife Mary Murray 8 Daur (Daughter) James Murray 7 Son Peter Murray 7 Son Hugh Murray 5 Son William Murray 10 Mo Son 1901 census at Aird Cottage, Wigtownshire. I am not sure this is him, You would need to get Birth Certs for the two children to prove or disprove Household Members (Name) Age Relationship Andrew Murray 43 Head Bella Murray 42 Wife William Murray 11 Son Robert Murray 9 Son 1911 census has him as a Ploughman & Servant living on a farm at Lower Knockglass, Portpatrick served in WW1 1922 Apr 28 Married Jane Murdoch Cunningham at Spittal, Wigtownshire 1970 Jun 27. died Wigtownshire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6RRF Posted 27 July Share Posted 27 July Working on a farm - a farm servant was an employee accommodated on a farm, rather than a household servant - in 1911, doesn't leave much time to become a pre-war regular, especially as he returns to farm work after the war Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 27 July Share Posted 27 July This is not a rigorous piece of research But I skimmed to see which William Murrays came up as being in Gallipoli (remember it is just a family story that suggests he was there, he may not have been) I found 3 men of whom we can eliminate one who died there I could fine nothing on the oher two that would help prove or disprove that they were our William Murray 8166 1/5 RSF at Gallipoli 7263 1/4 RSF at Gallipoli - not him died Galliopoli 1915 8316 1/4 RSF at Gallipoli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karinn Posted 27 July Author Share Posted 27 July I notice on the wedding certificate for my grandfather that his mother is deceased, perhaps my grandfather remarried a woman called Bella , hence the change 1901 census. This might account for the different name on the census that includes Robert, she could be the mother of Robert and Margaret, a possibility. Just as an aside, I remember visiting them ( Bob & Maggie) they lived in Portpatrick lighthouse ( not an active lighthouse) which they owned, neither married , she looked after her brother till he died and she lived to 100 and died in Stranraer. She was a seamstress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karinn Posted 27 July Author Share Posted 27 July Coming up to midnight here in NZ and time for lights out. Thank you to all for your input, I really do appreciate it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 27 July Share Posted 27 July 9 minutes ago, karinn said: wedding certificate for my grandfather that his mother is deceased, perhaps my grandfather remarried a woman called Bella , hence the change 1901 census. You are correct, that is the reason Andrew Murray's first wife died in 1895 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karinn Posted 27 July Author Share Posted 27 July Thanks again Corisande, good find regarding Bella. I did not hear of any of this from my family. Some of the writing is difficult to read, can’t make out what is written in the last column on the right between Andrew Murray and the word present. My father would appear to have been named after his grandfather, he too was Andrew. I know I keep expressing my gratitude to you and the others , but I am really truly very grateful for all the information you have supplied and time you have spent on this on my behalf. You have given me more information and pretty much verified and found documentation than I have been able to since I started looking into this. You all seem to have great skills in navigating the systems involved never mind extreme patience and perseverance. So thank you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6RRF Posted 28 July Share Posted 28 July 8 hours ago, karinn said: Thanks again Corisande, good find regarding Bella. I did not hear of any of this from my family. Some of the writing is difficult to read, can’t make out what is written in the last column on the right between Andrew Murray and the word present. It appears to be Widower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 28 July Share Posted 28 July We have been down a long road, and I think we have his genealogy nailed The problem is that we have not found what he did in WW1 there is the Original Photo put on the start of this thread (I have cut it in size) we have established that he was not the Royal Engineer with the service papers shown the family believe he fought at Gallipoli - though no evidence exits @6RRF said the portrait which you provided shows a soldier of the Royal Scots Fusiliers. Only one battalion of the regiment served at Gallipoli - 1/4th which was part of the 52nd [Lowland] Division. This needs a note of caution in that the battalion was a Territorial one and the portrait appears to lack the letter T on the shoulder straps, but this may not be decisive If this was the case, then I found 2 men who could be him. 8166 1/5 RSF at Gallipoli or 8316 1/4 RSF at Gallipoli . But I could not get any more info on these two to prove or disprove either. Note there may be other William Murray with RSF at Gallipoli that I have not found note this house of cards rests on him being at Gallipoli I cannot get anything in local papers - others may like to try he was a bachelor when he married in 1922, so there would be no children's birth certs for the wartime years that might have yielded clues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipman Posted 28 July Share Posted 28 July Just had a quick look and don't have time at moment. Worth checking the ICRC POW records for Gallipoli? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karinn Posted 28 July Author Share Posted 28 July Thanks again Corisande, good find regarding Bella. I did not hear of any of this from my family. Some of the writing is difficult to read, can’t make out what is written in the last column on the right between Andrew Murray and the word present. My father would appear to have been named after his grandfather, he too was Andrew. I know I keep expressing my gratitude to you and the others , but I am really truly very grateful for all the information you have supplied and time you have spent on this on my behalf. You have given me more information and pretty much verified and found documentation than I have been able to since I started looking into this. You all seem to have great skills in navigating the systems involved never mind extreme patience and perseverance. So thank you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karinn Posted 28 July Author Share Posted 28 July Thanks Corisande. Good clear findings on your part of my grandfathers genealogy and so helpful for me in using other suggested areas of possible research. I now have factual information to proceed with. In fact, the help from everyone on this forum has given me a renewed interest in trying to get to the bottom of this one particular area in my grandfathers history, so thank you all for your input, help and time. Your knowledge has been amazing and suggestions of areas to try for further information has be so helpful. I’m really glad I stumbled onto this website, you have collectively achieved more for me in this area than I was able to on my own. I will start subscribing again to several of the agencies using some of the suggestions mentioned , especially now that I am feeling more positive. It’s been such an interesting few days communicating with you all and benefiting from all your knowledge. Thank you. Karin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 28 July Share Posted 28 July On 27/07/2024 at 04:16, karinn said: It can become frustrating when you have to doubt the information that is sometimes contradicted by other information. You nearly gave up at that point There are many others on the forum who are more knowledgeable than I am on whether his WW1 record is findable from the photo . You will have to hope on of them comes upon this thread By establishing his genealogy, it means that anyone finding scraps of info on his service life, can easily check if it a runner or not. As @Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said above, you have to get the genealogy right for starters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karinn Posted 28 July Author Share Posted 28 July Wise words Corisande , thank you. DByS and the others have suggested some interesting areas to pursue so I will work out how to do that. In the meantime, as you have said, I will hope that some others may notice this particular request and have further input. Everyone who has contributed thus far has been great, it’s meant a lot to me to get this far. Thank you all once again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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