How can I get hold of MOD Retained RAF Records that have been passed to the National Archive without having to Pay?

[MikeW]

This is a follow up post to "Captain George William Biles DFC - 202 Squadron"

 

2 Squadron RNAS and 202 Squadron RAF seem to have a disproportionate number of pilots and observers that were given Long Service Commissions after WW1. Hence the National Archive does not have an Air76 record for these individuals as their records were mostly retained by the MOD.

Under the Freedom of Information Act it is possible to ask the MOD for these Retained Records, but only 5 a month unfortunately.

From my first batch of 5 requests, the MOD has sent me 2 records (fair enough), 1 record where they deny any knowledge of the officer's records (despite him being a Squadron Commander in 1919 and holding the Rank of Squadron Leader in 1922), and 2 records that they say they have sent to the National Archives. In the past, the MOD has subsequently coughed up a record that they initially said they didn't have.

Now it appears that the only way to extract these returned records from the National Archives is to make another Freedom of Information Request, and then Pay for someone in a specific department at the NA to dig them out, until such time as they get catalogued.

That process is documented here:         https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/mod-open-foi-request-step1

Have I got this right? This is making life very hard!

 

Mr Grumpy

 

Edited 26 July by MikeW

[Matlock1418]

Steal into TNA in the middle of the night? 

M

[Keith_history_buff]

I was under the impression that RAF officers' service records, for service that concluded from 1920 onwards, remain in the custody of the Ministry of Defence.

At some point they will get transferred to TNA, but they have their hands full with the British Army other ranks' service records at present. For some of the army records, their barcode number is known, and should be quoted to TNA, if MOD day they have transferred it.

[MikeW]

Keith,

this is from one of the emails I received  from the MOD:

 

Thank you for your application of 2 July 2024requesting the record of service for Frank FOWLER.

I am treating your correspondence as a request for information under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA).

A search for the information has now been completed within the Ministry of Defence, and I can confirm that no information in scope of your request is held.

However, I have been advised by our archives that a pre-WW2 record matching the details provided by you was recently moved to The National Archives. These recently moved records can be accessed via the following web page.

Frank Fowler. | The National Archives

Request MOD Personnel Records (nationalarchives.gov.uk).

 

The link provided takes one to  a Freedom Of Information application form at the National Archives. They review the request and supposedly comeback with a quotation for how much it will cost to provide whatever the MOD has passed to them, redacted of course as it might contain embarrassing details about medical conditions etc. One day I suspect they might realise that all the digitised stuff that is available now (ADM273 and Air76s etc) already contains all that interesting stuff and contravenes GDPR!!!

 

Mr Still Grumpy

[Keith_history_buff]

  

10 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

I am now wondering if some of the files with the XPE prefix to the barcode number are among the "airmen service records" that were going to start transferring across to TNA from April 2024 onwards.

  

10 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

So, I take it that the record that is marked in purple font was copied by the MOD and sent to you?

When will the records be transferred to The National Archives?
 

We have already received over four million records and expect to complete the transfer of all [British] Army non-officer records within the scope of the project by the end of March 2024. We will then move onto RAF non-officer records in 2024-25. 

As of 2023-24 financial year, concluding 31 March 2024

Will Butler
Head of Military Records
The National Archives UK

2:02 to 2:09

Navy and RAF records have not yet been transferred to us [as of 3 Feb 2024] and so applications still have to be made to the Ministry of Defence to access those.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTkVFYvUZYM

[Keith_history_buff]

I think the answer to your question is that it is not possible. You missed the boat. If you had put in an application to the MOD prior to the transfer earlier this year to TNA, it would have been possible. 

Now, all you can do is to go the FoI route, whereby TNA will eventually charge you GBP 24.95 for a digitised copy of the service records of the person that you are interested in. 

Ideally, RAF Disclosures Cranwell ought to have passed on the barcode reference, as this is what Army Personnel Centre, Kentigern House, Glasgow had been doing, to facilitate the searching and locating of the particular transferred record.

[MikeW]

Yes, they provided  a file for Biles/Bentley  that covers what I need 

However, They say Fowler was recently transferred to the NA. As an experiment I completed an Foi request for Frank Fowler at the NA, and they just came back and asked for a Death Certificate or Published obituary!

 

I'm getting grumpier

[Keith_history_buff]

Mike, you have not answered my question. Which of those files were provided to you, was it the one with the text in purple font? Which were the ones they told you were elsewhere, what colour font?

I am trying to determine why you have been rebuffed recently by RAF disclosures Cranwell. 

In principle only airmen records should have been transferred, according to the MOD's communications on the subject of service records. If it is the case that Frank Fowler has a service record which is in the RAF Officers and Other Ranks (pre 53) catch-all subcategory, then it allows us to better determine the rationale behind what RAF disclosures Cranwell have communicated.

[Keith_history_buff]

Given that Bentley (1893-1968) has both 1. been born more than 116 years ago, and 2. has been dead for more than 25 years, there were no administrative hurdles for RAF disclosures Cranwell up to 31 March 2024.

[Keith_history_buff]

I only recently cottoned on to the fact that the procedure for the MOD to issue service records changed in April 2023, other than the £30 fee being waived for the remaining records that are in their custody.

Prior to 1 Apr 2023 requests for records of Service were processed under the MOD Publication Scheme which allowed for private release of additional information to the Next of Kin, or someone applying with the permission of the Next of Kin.

On 1 Apr 2023, release of records transferred under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) where disclosure is to the world at large. Under FOIA everyone who applies for a copy of a record of Service must be provided with the same information, there being no concept of private release under the legislation. The identity of the person requesting the information is not taken into account under the Act as requests are handled requester and motive blind. Unfortunately, as explained in the covering letter provided with the record, some information contained within the record is exempt from disclosure under FOIA.

I am a relative of the person I am searching for. Will I be able to see all of the information in their record?
The right to access information is set out in the FOI Act. The act gives everyone a legal right to know what information is held by public bodies, including The National Archives. It also provides you with the right to have it communicated to you, subject to any exemptions which may apply.

Since these rights are given to everyone, anyone can request information, regardless of whether they are related to the subject or not. Under the FOI Act 2000, there are a number of exemptions which can be applied by public bodies to protect certain types of information, including that which is sensitive or personal. This information is exempt by law and as such is closed to everyone until certain criteria (for example, passage of time since the death of the data subject) have been met. This means that occasionally, information will be provided but with redactions in place to protect certain types of information.

Can I open a record of an individual I know to be deceased?
Whether or not the material can be opened will be assessed upon request and considered under relevant access legislation.

To open a record, it must first be located and checked. For those records relating to individuals born less than 115 years ago, we will require proof of death so that we can consider whether information from the record can be released. Suitable forms of evidence are an official death certificate or published obituary.

 

[MikeW]

sorry Keith, 

I don't see anything in Purple font. My monitor might be set up differently to yours.

This document was provided, 4 pages, 2 of them heavily redacted

[Keith_history_buff]

Mike,
Q1 which of the following three records, which have been colour coded, did you receive?
Q2 which of the following three records did they say they could not provide, they no longer held them, and that you would need to contact Kew instead?

Name	Gw Bentley
Birth Date	24 Mar 1893
Service Number	A818831/45
Rank	RAF Officers and Other Ranks (pre 53)
Reference Number	XPE000034342

Name	Gw Bentley
Birth Date	31 Mar 1893
Service Number	883841/39
Rank	RAF Officers and Other Ranks (pre 53)
Reference Number	XPE000052936

 

Name	Gw Bentley
Birth Date	24 Mar 1893
Service Number	2055
Rank	RAF Officers
Reference Number	XOR000039667

 

[Matlock1418]

Just a similar gumpy observation - MoD Disclosure haven't a clue about FOI and especially GDPR when it comes to historic records ... Maybe one for the Rants thread?

I've had a request for modern and old info from the MoD/JCCC rejected by MoD Disclosures [as point of entry] because of GDPR - for a man that was over 105 years dead - they said the info was Personal Data and that it was covered by Neither admit nor deny!  I put them straight and got the info in the end.

But my faith in the MoD is dented.

Have you tried speaking to the RAF Air Historical Branch?

I found them keen to help but sadly nobody has yet found what I wanted to find/see about an Airman's 1920s service - it should be there somewhere but despite plenty of details from me a blank was drawn. But that was Cranwell pre-Mar. 2024.  Sigh ....

M

[MikeW]

Sorry Keith, 

they didn't reference any of those files: 

 

they did provide:   Interwar (which I posted a snip of), Form 1406, and Officers Record of Service   (these may well be your "X" references, I don't know)

 

The officers they say they cannot provide anything for are:

Frank Fowler (dob 28/5/1897)   - they say they recently transferred him to NA

Rene Maurice Bayley - they claim to have no record of him

[Keith_history_buff]

There are the following for Frank Fowler.

 

 

As I would understand it, RAF disclosures Cranwell should have the following.

Name	F Fowler
Birth Date	28 May 1897
Service Number	2141
Rank	RAF Officers
Reference Number	XOR000022575 Account: 13038

The following may well be at TNA

Name	F Fowler
Birth Date	28 May 1897
Service Number	903317/29
Rank	RAF Officers and Other Ranks (pre 53)
Reference Number	XPE000076965  Account: 13001

This information has come from RAF disclosures Cranwell, who have passed it on to Ancestry.

The question that I have is this:

Why are RAF Officer records being transferred from MOD to TNA when it is only RAF non-officer records that have been announced as currently transferring?

 

This thread has prompted me to look at the service record of an RAF airman's WW2 service record that I have. The barcode reference has a prefix of XAA and this airman was not commissioned.

Edited 27 July by Keith_history_buff
Added account record codes of 13001 and 13038

[Keith_history_buff]

 

Military Discharge Indexes, 1920-1971

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=61448

This started life in 2014 as a very big spreadsheet, listing those soldiers born prior to 1901 for whom the MOD had a service record. 

At some point, similar data for the RAF was passed on to Ancestry.

 

[Keith_history_buff]

There is a surviving service record, according to the same source as above.

I presume he was an airman, and was discharged in 1921?

Name	Rm Bayley
Birth Date	24 Jun 1892
Service Number	124361/21
Rank	RAF Officers and Other Ranks (pre 53)
Reference Number	XPE000266040

[Keith_history_buff]

Reference:	AIR 79/393/41623
Description:	Frank Fowler.

This is available to download from Findmypast

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM%2FAIR79%2F72184&tab=this

So, I presume you already have this man's airman record, as opposed to his officer service record.

[Keith_history_buff]

Regarding the barcode references, it was my understanding that TNA were issuing letters with the following wording, regarding British Army other ranks' records that have been recently transferred. 

The good news is that they can locate the records, the bad news is that they are overwhelmed by the volume.

Good Afternoon,

Thank you for your patience with regards to your Freedom of Information request of 13/07/2022 regarding the service records of:

File ID APV000654321 Frederick Smith 45678901

We have handled your request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000.  The FOI Act gives you the right to know whether we hold the information you want and to have it communicated to you.

Due to the early stages of this project, we are unable to facilitate visitors viewing records either on site or online.  This is because they need to be stored, indexed and added to the catalogue before they can make their way into our reading rooms. Therefore I have arranged for copies to be digitally sent to you, unless you specifically request paper copies. I have requested that requested record be copied and hope to be sending it to you as soon as the copies arrive.

Kind regards,

[Keith_history_buff]

1 hour ago, MikeW said:

Thank you for your application of 2 July 2024requesting the record of service for Frank FOWLER.

I am treating your correspondence as a request for information under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA).

A search for the information has now been completed within the Ministry of Defence, and I can confirm that no information in scope of your request is held.

However, I have been advised by our archives that a pre-WW2 record matching the details provided by you was recently moved to The National Archives. These recently moved records can be accessed via the following web page.

Frank Fowler. | The National Archives

Request MOD Personnel Records (nationalarchives.gov.uk).

 

This, to me. does read like a cop-out by RAF Disclosures Cranwell. They should, at the least, have given you the barcode reference.

Assuming that his record was transferred at some point between 1 April 2024 and 2 July 2024, the question I would be asking is how long will it be before TNA are in a position to add the individual details to their catalogue?

I see no alternative to making a request to TNA, paying the fee, and being patient.

[MikeW]

RM Bayley started as an Assistant Paymaster in the RN, joined the RNAS in 1915 and after training eventually serving in 2 Sqn, then 202 Sqn RAF after 1/4/18, then CO of 202 sqn from 23/3/1919, and I have a note that his rank was Squadron Leader in 1921. There is no Air76.

 

F Fowler - Find my Past - I have been saving up FMP queries to take advantage of their offer of a couple of weeks free access, I do realise they won't give me anything without my credit card!

However, Fowler's ADM273 doesn't make any mention of his being an airman prior to Commission in RNAS

 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

The information that I am seeing is that Bayley was NEVER an airman, always an officer.

It would appear that he was seconded to the Greek Air Force, and died in Athens on Monday 11 September 1932. Newspaper obituaries are likely to shed more light on his career. Whether or not his file, barcode reference XPE000266040 is with the MOD or with TNA is your battle, should you choose to fight it.

 

I had two experiences with the MOD, regarding a family member who was an airman in WW2.

This man's service number was sourced from AIR 78. It was also recorded on his son's wartime birth certificate. I wrote to RAF Disclosures (formerly at Innsworth). They replied, to tell me nobody of that name served in the RAF, as they had no service record, and they were keeping my £30 cheque.

At the same time I wrote to MOD Medal Office, asking for confirmation of entitlement. They replied, telling me they had consulted his service record, and confirmed the two medals to which he had entitlement.

I forwarded this to RAF Disclosures, who said they would look once more, and send a copy of the record. I waited 2-3 weeks, and nothing happened. I followed up, and was told they would send a copy of the record. I waited 2-3 weeks, and nothing happened. The third time I followed up, and finally the record arrived.

The challenge with these situations is being able to say "I know that a record exists, it has the following reference." Without it, it is hard to say that one has evidence of a surviving record.

[Keith_history_buff]

Someone I know contacted RAF Disclosures about a family member, and wishing to apply for their WW2 service record. They replied, to tell me nobody of that name served in the RAF. He sent them the CWGC printout as proof. They replied, saying they are still adamant no such person every enlisted in the RAF!!

[Keith_history_buff]

Similar ground covered before, I see

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/289464-trouble-finding-a-ground-officer-in-the-rnas-and-raf/#comment-3032197

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/292337-warrant-officer-frederick-simpson/page/2/#comment-3041487

[Matlock1418]

I rather get the general feeling that the "Disclosures" team(s) at MOD are completely 'adrift' [aka: 'Haven't a clue'] when it comes to historic records. 

M