How can I get hold of MOD Retained RAF Records that have been passed to the National Archive without having to Pay?

[Keith_history_buff]

I presume that for any Airmen records, where service continued into the 1920s, their two-sided AM Form 175 would have a barcode.

This is the lower part of the face of a double-sided RAF Form 543A, with a barcode attached as of the time that TNT put the record into the warehouse at Swadlincote.

[Keith_history_buff]

The party line from The National Archives UK is that they do not have service records for RAF Officers discharged in the interwar period

Quote

3.3 Officers 1918-1922

Search the Royal Air Force officers’ service records 1918-1919 (charges apply) online for officers who served in the Royal Air Force during the First World War (AIR 76). By the end of 1919, 26,000 of the 27,000 serving RAF officers had been discharged, and it is largely their service details which are held in this series.

3.4 Officers after 1922

Records of RAF officers who served after 1922 are still with the RAF. Look on the GOV.UK website to find out how to obtain service records.

 

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/royal-air-force-personnel/

 

[MikeW]

It's a miracle!

 

After a "sort-of" snotty email regarding  Frank Fowler following the initial RAF Disclosure message about  "No Record of Fowler" they have suddenly found something. I am waiting with great anticipation to see what they've come up with?

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, MikeW said:

regarding  Frank Fowler following the initial RAF Disclosure message about  "No Record of Fowler" they have suddenly found something.

Another miracle!  Do they never end?

Please do let us know - I feel pretty sure you will,

Now you/we just have stay alive long enough for whatever to be released.

M

Edited 30 July by Matlock1418

[Keith_history_buff]

As per the first page of this thread, it appears that he has a WW1 and interwar period record, in addition to a 1939 onwards record. It will be interesting to see if you get both from the MOD.

I would quote the barcode references to them, and ask if they can confirm which of those they have been able to locate.

[MikeW]

Morning Keith, yes I did quote both of the barcode references you kindly provided, and the reply came back pretty quickly - fingers crossed something will pop into my inbox today.

You have obviously built up a lot of knowledge about the RAF Disclosures and we are all very grateful that you are able to help us.

In my case, I am not so bothered about "between wars" information, though I am finding it incredibly interesting, especially as 2 RNAS and 202 RAF had so many pilots, observers and ground officers that were granted long term commissions after WW1 -  Photographic and W/T expertise perhaps? My big problem is when there is inter-war service, they withhold the WW1 RAF content.

 

This is obviously a battle of wills, who is going to give up first?

 

I was due at the NA today with a long list of documents to review and copy - tested positive for Covid this morning though - in this heat it's even more unpleasant that getting it in winter.

Edited 31 July by MikeW

[Airshipped]

You've already the ADM 273 files for Frank Fowler, his DSC info etc.

Re his RAF career, he was awarded the AFC for training at Vendome.

84^th Wing at Vendome made a series of recommendations for awards in the 1918-1919 period, including eight recommendations for the Air Force Cross. This is sparing enough, considering the number of instructors, test pilots and ferry pilots based at Vendome during the period in question.

On 28 August 1918 Fraser sent his recommendations in accordance with Air Ministry Weekly Order No. 841 of 15 August. He made two recommendations for the award of the Air Force Cross, to Temp Majors Frank Fowler and Henry Karslake Thorold. Both men were ex-RNAS and had been awarded the DSC.

Fraser’s recommendation for Fowler is quite detailed:

“This Officer joined this Station on the 25^th November 1917, since which date he has been employed firstly in charge of Finishing Flight, and latterly as Officer Commanding No. 205 Training Depot Station (All Through Training) under my Command.

He has shown extraordinary zeal in his duties, both on the ground and in the air; flies in all weathers; and his untiring energy has been an excellent incentive to all Instructors and Pupils in his Squadron

He is a V.G.I. Pilot on all types of machines, and an exceedingly capable Instructor and Lecturer.

This Officer is strongly recommended for Award in recognition of exceptionally valuable services rendered in actual flying”.

In contrast, Thorold had been with the Vendome station since its formation in October 1916, following gallant service in the Dardanelles. Thorold commanded No. 212 TDS (preliminary seaplane training) at Vendome. They would arguably have been the two most capable officers under Fraser’s command.

On 5 October 1918 Fraser sent his recommendations in accordance with Air Ministry letter No.C.10804 (D of T) dated 1 October. He ranked Temp Major Henry Karslake Thorold DSC, Squadron Commander, 212 TDS, ahead of Temp Major Frank Fowler, the Squadron Commander of 205 TDS. Thorold was recommended for ‘zeal and ability as Pilot Instructor, and for exceedingly efficient manner in which his Squadron has been organised and administered’. Thorold was to return to operational flying with a service squadron, winning the DFC in the inter-war years and ultimately reaching the rank of Air Vice Marshal in World War II. (He co-authored a booklet, ‘Community Centres, Some Service Experiences’). Fowler’s recommendation was ‘for zeal and ability as Pilot Instructor, hard work and efficiency as Squadron Commander’.

There's quite a bit of revisions to the lists of those recommended for awards, given the various Air Ministry letters and weekly orders, but Fowler's AFC was among those gazetted on 2 November 1918.

It's interesting that you might get to access his full service records, given that he continued to serve in the interwar years. Would welcome any news in that regard, for this chap has appeared on my radar on quite a number of occasions.

The RAF List of July 1920 refers to Fowler as being a Flight Lieutenant at the RAF Cranwell Cadet College:

http://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/121654444

Mar 1921 at RAF Cadet College Cranwell:

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/121640409

The RAF List of Nov, December 1921 Fowler was among 22 officers sent for courses of instruction at Cambridge University. 

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/121626309

http://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/121624221

Fowler still there, Jan 1922:

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/121305519

In October 1923 it was reported that Fowler had been posted to the School of Technical Training at Manston:

https://archive.org/stream/Flight_International_Magazine_1923-10-04-pdf/Flight_International_Magazine_1923-10-04-pdf_djvu.txt

(He was to train ‘men’ rather than ‘boys’).

On 3 July 1925 the Air Ministry announced that Fowler was promoted from Flight Lieutenant to Squadron Leader. Fellow ex-RNAS Irishman Charles Edward Henry Rathborne was promoted from Wing Commander to Group Captain.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/33063/page/4456/data.pdf 

In July 1933 Fowler was promoted from Squadron Leader to Wing Commander. 

https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1933/1933%20-%200045.PDF

On 19 June 1934 the Air Ministry announced that Wing Commander Fowler was being placed on the retired list with effect from 20 June, on account of ill health.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/34061/page/3908/data.pdf

He retired to what had become Northern Ireland. In April 1936 Fowler placed adverts in the local newspapers, ‘Bachelor requires immediately cook-valet for summer, camp life, knowledge of boats useful. Apply with copies of references to Wing Commander Fowler, c/o Major Ker, Portavoe, Donaghadee, Co Down’.

He spent many years sailing and yachting, before and after the Second World War.

In January 1960 the Belfast Gazette reported that Wing Commander Frank Fowler DSC, AFC, BA, JP, of The Haven, Strangford, Co Down had been appointed a Deputy Lieutenant for the County Down with effect from 21 December 1959:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Belfast/issue/2010/page/3/data.pdf

The Haven, Strangford, was actually his mother’s house. Mabel Fowler had died in 1952. (Although Frank was born in Co Meath, much of his family ties were to Ulster, his mother being of the Houston family).

Re the Ulster side of his clan? One year after Frank was born his grandfather was elected MP for North Down:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Blakiston-Houston

Frank's brother Bryan was to be decorated in both world wars: Brigadier Bryan John Fowler, DSO (1943) and Bar (1945), MC (1918). Of Rahinston, Co Meath, he was born 18 Aug 1898. The Fowlers also intermarried with the Godley family, for which the controversial Kilbracken family also had a connection with naval aviation – albeit in World War II.

Frank Fowler remained a bachelor. His mid-terrace house, overlooking the harbour, was sold in 1972, after his death.

[Keith_history_buff]

What I am finding puzzling is the "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Minister" scenario whereby the official line is that RAF Officer records are not yet earmarked to be transferred to Kew, yet the Sir Humphrey types at RAF Disclosures opine that they have nothing.

The use of the barcodes ought to indicate where those records are. I am of the opinion that a statement of "must have been transferred to Kew" has been the default response, in the absence of a more diligent trawl. As per my experience, I am left with the view that MOD Medal Office have a better grasp on how to search their service file database.

[Keith_history_buff]

On 26/07/2024 at 16:27, MikeW said:

sorry Keith, 

I don't see anything in Purple font. My monitor might be set up differently to yours.

This document was provided, 4 pages, 2 of them heavily redacted

I shall hazard a guess that there ought to be a barcode on the record, which should have a prefix of XPE and is within the Account: 13001 series of records.

In the same way that a WW1 RNR officer can have records within the ADM 240 and ADM 340 series, ratings can have records in both the ADM 188 and ADM 363 series, covering WW1 & interwar and WW2 respectively. RAF officers seem to have a parallel here, too, XPE and XOR. The evidence suggests the RAF officer records, interwar and WW2, are presently stewarded by RAF Disclosures Cranwell.

[MikeW]

Keith,

 

just PMed you a copy of the interwar record. I can't see anything on there unless the master is hard copy and they put the bar code on the back.

[MikeW]

Progress to Date

Frank Fowler                   After telling me they had found something, nothing at all has been received yet

Rene Maurice Bayley      After I provided more information (thanks Keith) - absolutely Nothing

Cyril Fraser Brewerton     No acknowledgement from them at all (I must prod them over this)

George William Biles        They sent the information I needed

Graeme Clarke Bladon      They sent the information I required

 

As a month was up, I tentatively ordered 5 more on Friday 2nd August, astonishingly they provided everything today (5th August). Heavily redacted of course, why does it matter which school a pilot went to (unless they've cut a deal with schools like Sherborne and Dulwich College so they don't get pestered by people like me?).

So these 5 were handled incredibly rapidly:

Frederick Esk Sandford

Lionel Arthur Hervey

Robert Jope Slade  (who was briefly attached to 2 Sqn RNAS whilst awaiting a disciplinary hearing), Died in service in Iraq

Vincent Greenwood

Norman Hugh Jenkins (who died in the crash of the Fairy Long Range Monoplane in 1929)

 

Apart from some daft redactions I'd have to give them 10/10 for these, couldn't ask for better service

 

Mike

 

[MikeW]

You couldn't make this up - an hour after my last posting, I received an eMail from the National Archives after I followed RAF Disclosures instructions and requested Frank Fowler's information from the NA.

 

They said the MOD still has the records and they gave me the 2 Bar Codes that Keith supplied and said "quote these to RAF Disclosures"

I think this is getting worse than Yes Minister!!!!

[Keith_history_buff]

Thanks for sharing. As our cousins across the pond would say, there are two "takeaways" from this.

1. TNA have not received any officer service records as of yet. This is in keeping with all press releases to date regarding the transfer of records during this decade from MOD to TNA. This is important to know for those users of the GWF researching RAF officers who served in WW1, and were to serve past 1922, be it on a continuing engagement, or a reengagement, their records have yet to be transferred to the stewardship of TNA.
2. I have not been left with a particularly positive opinion of RAF Disclosures Cranwell, and this just reaffirms that viewpoint. Their counterparts at Kew do have a clear idea as to what records are in which location.

[Keith_history_buff]

I am wondering if this may be his entry on a RAF Form 1406 

Name	F Fowler
Birth Date	28 May 1897
Service Number	903317/29
Rank	RAF Officers and Other Ranks (pre 53)
Reference Number	XPE000076965  Account: 13001

 

[Airshipped]

10 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

I am wondering if this may be his entry on a RAF Form 1406 

Name	F Fowler
Birth Date	28 May 1897
Service Number	903317/29
Rank	RAF Officers and Other Ranks (pre 53)
Reference Number	XPE000076965  Account: 13001

 

That's his DOB.

[Keith_history_buff]

I was theorising that records within Account: 13001 that are subcategorised as RAF Officers and Other Ranks (pre 53) could be bundles of RAF Form 1406.

Your comment does not confirm or deny the hypothesis.

[MikeW]

Latest update on the FOI requests - sort of.

 

After telling me they thought they had found something on Fowler circa 30th July, I have heard absolutely nothing. I did quote Keith's reference numbers and the reply from the National Archives but they appear to ignore my emails - the emails seem to go to a general address which I assume  should get routed to the "Genealogy Caseworker" dealing with the request - this obviously doesn't work!!! The Genealogy Caseworker is always careful to not disclose their name.

Are these people volunteers (in which case I can cut them some slack), or are they civil servants, or civilian employees of the the RAF?

I have now identified something like another 15 pilots, observers, and Ground Staff of 202 that all have their records retained, I'm not hopeful of getting much back.

 

Mike

[MikeW]

Would you believe it???

Just received (29/8/2024) after almost a month, the very heavily redacted 14660, and an almost unredacted Confidential Record of Service, for John Alexander MacNab, an RNVR Observer with 2 RNAS who was retired on 26/10/1933 and then brought back on 26/8/1939 for a short time. Doesn't seem to have progressed past Flight Lieutenant in the RAF. Went to Russia with Syren Force, lots of Russian decorations! Interesting career!

[MikeW]

More on Frank Fowler - a lot more eventually     @Keith_history_buff your bar codes eventually worked       @Airshipped have the full document, pm me your email

 

After receiving nothing from RAF Disclosures about Frank Fowler, despite an email saying they thought they'd found something, I submitted a 2nd Freedom Of Information request at the beginning of September (24). Almost by return they sent me a totally irrelevant document about a Frank Fowler with a different DOB!!!

1 grumpy email later (I'm getting good at them), they almost immediately sent me two redacted Form 1406s, as he apparently retired and was taken on again for the early part of WW2. 

So much for "We sent his records to the National Archives".

I also have a Name & email address at RAF Disclosures, Trenchard Hall!!!

Back to Frank Fowler, his 1st Form 1406 is very difficult to read and a couple of the dates don't seem to make sense. Anyway, here is my full take on him:

FCdr Fowler, Frank                         AFC, DSC, Croix de Guerre, BA, JP

DOB 28/5/1897, born Kells, County Meath, Ireland

Joined RNAS on 7/4/1915

Under Instruction at Eastbourne from 7/4/1915

RAeC Certificate 1220 gained at Eastbourne on 30/4/1915

Under instruction at Central Flying School  No dates

Under instruction at Whitley Bay from 26/6/1915

Gunnery Course, Portsmouth, from 11/7/1915

Navigation Course, Portsmouth,  from 10/8/1915

Under instruction at Chingford from 11/9/1915

On Staff at Chingford from 14/10/1915

Dunkerque from 22/6/1916 - for disposal

B Squadron 1 Wing from 23/6/1916

2 Squadron from 5/11/1916

Awarded DSC on 11/5/1917

Awarded Croix de Guerre on 20/7/1917

Admitted hospital in France on 22/8/1917, passed fit for ground duties on 12/11/1917

Vendome from 20/11/17, ground duties in charge of the Finishing Flight

Vendome from 19/1/1918, flying duties, eventually instructing after passing fitness survey

RAF, 205 TDS, Vendome on 1/4/1918 with rank of temporary Major

Officer in Command of 205 TDS, Vendome, from ????  must be pre October as per his commendation for a gong

AFC Gazetted on 2/11/1918

14 TDS, Lake Down, on 20/12/1918

Staff at Cranwell, FLt, from 11/4/1919  16/11/1919

Attended Cambridge University, Engineering Course A from September 1921 5/10/1921 to June 1923, gained a BA Degree  

Attended short engineering course at School of Technical Training (Men) Manston from 2/7/1923 to 21/9/1923  - Note attended not instructing

School of Technical Training, Halton, from 1/10/1923 

Halton from 8/9/1924

Rank of Squadron Leader Gazetted on 3/7/1925

RAF Depot Iraq from 26/2/1926

Station Commander of RAF Donibristle on 30/10/1927 to 28/1/1929

RAF Depot from 8/8/1929

RAF Halton from 1/8/1930, Supernumerary duties

No.1 School of Technical Training, Halton from 9/5/1931

Rank of Wing Commander Gazetted on 20/6/1931

RAF Depot from  9/4/1933, Supernumerary

Placed on Half Pay List from 5/4/1934

Retired on 20/6/1934 owing to ill health

Reemployed on Active List with rank of Wing Commander on 29/9/1939

No.32 Maintenance Unit RAF with Engineering Duties, from 29/9/1939  - where was 32 MU???

Reverted to Retired List, not liable for recall, on 19/10/1940

Appointed Deputy Lieutenant for County Down, Gazetted on 21/12/1959

Died 11/12/1971, County Down, Ireland

 

Quite a career, still got a few dates and Roles to sort out, and probably a few misinterpretations of the fuzzy Form 1406. I wonder if he appears in any CFS 'class; photographs?

[Keith_history_buff]

 

 

Name	F Fowler
Birth Date	28 May 1897
Service Number	903317/29
Rank	RAF Officers and Other Ranks (pre 53)
Reference Number	XPE000076965  Account: 13001

Name	F Fowler
Birth Date	28 May 1897
Service Number	2141
Rank	RAF Officers
Reference Number	XOR000022575 Account: 13038

Thanks for sharing

So, if I understand correctly,

the document above, blue font, covered WW1 and inter-war service? 
the document above, purple font, covered service from September 1939 onwards?

The same format Form 1406 was used for both?

[MikeW]

Keith, 

29 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

The same format Form 1406 was used for both?

No, totally different layouts, pm me with your email and I'll sent them to you.

 

31 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

the document above, blue font, covered WW1 and inter-war service? 
the document above, purple font, covered service from September 1939 onwards?

No. There was a 1406 that covered 1939 to 1940 and joined to it (by that, I mean the PDFs had been merged as they were clearly 2 different documents), another 1406 covering RNAS and RAF up until he retired due to ill health in 1934. And a nice little bar code sticker on the front page of the first pdf with your bar code XOR000022575.

The other bar code, XPE000076965, wasn't referenced at all. I still don't know if there are 2 bar codes, one for each document, or if they threw away one bar code and merged the two documents for my foi request.

[hmsk212]

5 hours ago, MikeW said:

 

 

No.32 Maintenance Unit RAF with Engineering Duties, from 29/9/1939  - where was 32 MU???

 

 

 

I believe that No 32 Maintenance Unit were part of 43 (Maintenance) Group that were originally based in Andover.

Steve

[Keith_history_buff]

On 26/07/2024 at 16:27, MikeW said:

Name	Gw Bentley
Birth Date	24 Mar 1893
Service Number	A818831/45
Rank	RAF Officers and Other Ranks (pre 53)
Reference Number	XPE000034342 Account: 13001

So, it appears the WW1 and interwar details are in this format. It looks like two sides of a numbered folio, in a big ledger.

For anything from 1939 onwards, AM Form 1406 is completed.

Thank you for sharing all this, this has helped to get a better understanding of why there are two subsets of RAF officer service records.

 

 

 

[ICM - RAF Retd]

I'm fairly sure that 32 MU was based at St Athan in South Wales for most of my RAF time.  The RAFWeb site has it there in December 1939, as part of 43 Maintenance Group which had its HQ at Andover.

 

 

[MikeW]

Yes, I think Fowler was posted to St Athan. 

32 Maintenance Unit was formed at St Athan on 1st July 1939. Fowler was posted to No.32 MU on 29th September 1939.