address and death date query for 26827 William Henry Williams 18th welsh

[corisande]

You have lost me here,

Your OP says Thomas Henry Williams

The latest post says William  Henry  Williams

[Matlock1418]

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/279900/w-williams/

The COG Burial Return is WILLIAMS, TH, 17th WR 26288 [Identified by a Disc - there was no cross]

The GRRF is changed from WILLIAMS, TH, 17th Bn WR 26288 to WILLIAMS, W, 18th Bn WR 26287

Is that the puzzle?

COG & GRRF were 'work in progress'

M

Edited 27 July by Matlock1418
Just spotted the COG & change of GRRF numbers too

[Matlock1418]

William WILLIAMS 26287 WR has dependant's pension records [not as THW]

Edit: one of the pension index cards was originally mis-indexed by Fold3 as 26284 [now re-indexed as 26287 - WW's MIC is as 26287]

M

Edited 27 July by Matlock1418
edit

[corisande]

CWGC  gives

W WILLIAMS
Service Number: 26287
Welsh Regiment 18th Bn.
Died 24 March 1918

 

Soldiers Effects gives this for man died 24 Mar 1918 as William Williams  #26287

 

 

Edited 27 July by corisande

[weshallremember]

ok you asked for it

yes part of the puzzle

it was a re-burial

the 18th were 42 miles south on that day  near  Monchy-au-Bois

CWGC  stating he was killed 24th march 1918 and disc found 

GERMAN P A form says  pay book found on 24th august 1918    same day different month  ??????????  correct Name but has small error on number 26383 and 26387 and is listed as 3rd welsh   

along with 14 other soldiers who were also listed as killed

sister posts enquiry with IRRC says missing from 9th of APRIL 1918

RED CROSS PAPER WORK STATES CONTACTED FAMILY 17TH MARCH 1919 with details as 18th welsh

in short i think he was killed 9th or 10 of April!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ALSO OF ALL THE MEN LISTED OF THE 18TH WELSH  KILLED BY  CWGC ON 24TH OF MARCH ALL BUT 2 ARE COMEMORATED ON THE ARRAS MEMORIAL

WHICH WOULB BE CORRECT FROM WHERE THEY WERE FIGHTING AT THAT TIME.

 

   trevor

Edited 27 July by weshallremember

[corisande]

The Roll on Ancestry gives his movements

 

and SDGW gives

Name     William Williams
Birth Place     Stoke Newington, Middx.
Residence     Newbury, Berks
Death Date     24 Mar 1918
Death Place     France and Flanders
Enlistment Place     Cardiff
Rank     Private
Regiment     Welsh Regiment
Battalion     18th Battalion
Regimental Number     26287
Type of Casualty     Killed in action

 

[weshallremember]

WITH THANKS TO THE IRRC 

 

regards

TrevoR

Edited 27 July by weshallremember

[weshallremember]

on the pension why say presumed dead ???????

if they found a body with a i/d disc 

WITH THANKS  C W G C 

 

 

 

Edited 27 July by weshallremember

[Matlock1418]

Interesting now that we can see the bigger picture - probably would have helped to have revealed it earlier. 

But, hey ho!

The good side effect though is that I had earlier updated some of the details for WW, 26287, WR pension records at WFA/Fold3! 

As I'm now reading things ...

WW seems to have been in 17th Bn before the 18th Bn [LLT notes the 17th Bn was disbanded Feb 1918]

Germans could have picked up a pay book and not had a body [does it say they had found one?] and anyway even if they had a body to bury a body could be lost for a while after that and their records seem late 1918. A location doesn't seem given.  Is there any mention anywhere of a hospital or dying of wounds?  I can't read german at all well, but I am not seeing anything like that so far.  Strange that there are differing details but that could possibly be simply based on an iffy german source info and repetition into ICRC, 1919.   ???

Sister in late 1918 could be mistaken about date of him going missing - wonder how she got that 'missing' info - on 9 Apr ??? Had it really taken the Bn/Army that long to miss him ???   Date of her notification ???   Or perhaps confusion and mis-communication - I note at least four records at ICRC for WW, Welsh Regt, and 9.4.18 and also one of those recorded 18th Bn Roy Welsh - surely a potential recipe for a mix-up ??

It's actually the RSE from 1919 that says presumed

Pension card from 1919 says mIssing.  The MoP typically then waited six months from missing until deciding presumed dead and then would start paying a pension - in this case the pension to his mother took until the claim was made and commenced nearly 15 months after 24.3.18, on 7.6.19

The COG BR with a Disc [presumably a 17th Bn one] and GRRF are both dated 1920 = it took a while before they confirmed him as dead - hence for a long time 1918/19 missing presumed dead and the financial stuff had been settled in 1919 before his body was recovered.  I don't see contradiction in that timeline

Army/German/ICRC/CWGC/relatives also could potentially be confused as to which Bn he was in [i.e. because of his seemingly earlier 17th Bn to 18th posting] and that could perhaps influence CWGC, possibly additionally through any NoK verification form that might have been submitted???

= So what you are really looking for is for other info as to when WW was last seen alive or reported missing and his Bn on that date

= or finding a suitable WILLIAMS, TH  ???

As for S36.G.12.d.6.2 map reference where the body of THW/WW was recovered from [geo-references as 50.667361, 2.796759 which seems to be in Region Nord, north of Bac St Maur, Pas de Calais], a short distance from where he is now buried. Best to also check where that is - has that been done?  I'm sort of presuming it has by you.  How does it match the 17th and 18 Bn WD?  Was this where the 17th were? [?? disbanded by then] Is this how you said the 18th were 42 miles south on that day near Monchy-au-Bois?  Are you thinking 18th Bn Mercatel 24 Mar?  And then Fleuxbaix sector 9 Apr?  I can see the conumdrum, the latter being much closer to the place of recovery of the body.  The detail of the latter period in 18th Bn's April 'Narrative A' will need to be checked/plotted I suppose.

WD link at TNA https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354282  WO-95-2607-2_02

Unless you can firmly document 9 or 10 Apr I think you are going to have a hard time challenging/changing the date. And the Bn would likely be a task too, I suppose possibly easier if you can point to the MR and demonstrate the relative positions/states of the two Bn, though I think probably not required.  ??  Then again many headstones bear the details of a completely different unit - and not just the Bn - with official approval.  CWGC often don't seem to like change now without, in their eyes, very hard 'facts'!

Un-ravelling such affairs is not in my usual comfort zone and I am not sure I have resolved much/anything ?? - It is a puzzle to me [and clearly puzzling you too, Trevor]

I'll follow with interest.

M

 

Edited 28 July by Matlock1418
clarify a couple of points

[Matlock1418]

Main Dependant's Pension pension index card, since it has been discussed above and in your other thread = perhaps not so separate after all

William WILLIAMS, 26287, Welsh Regt

Image thank to WFA/Fold3

M

Edited 28 July by Matlock1418

[DavidOwen]

Threads have been merged to avoid confusion.

[weshallremember]

OK more details 

all the OTHER soldiers on the German pay book list have been listed on the C W G C as killed in April 1918  BEWTTEN 10TH AND 15TH ???????

INCLUDING A HALE W 18TH WELSH ??????

ALSO ON THE LIST

now could this be the error????????????????????????????????????????

Williams Robert   9th loyal north lancs  NUMBER   26289  ?????????????? ONE DIGIT OUT

SEE SHEET  WITH THANKS C W G C

Trevor

Edited 28 July by weshallremember

[Matlock1418]

17 minutes ago, weshallremember said:

INCLUDING A HALE W 18TH WELSH ??????

?? It seems possible that this might be: Alfred HALL, 266731, 18WR - 13 Apr 1918 https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/873604/alfred-hall - on the Ploegsteert Memorial [which is the common place of commemoration for those lost/not found in the Fleurbaix area ... AH is now with a relative who was lost the same day/place with another regt ] 

M

[Matlock1418]

36 minutes ago, weshallremember said:

now could this be the error????????????????????????????????????????

Williams Robert   9th loyal north lancs  NUMBER   26289  ??????????????

I'm not sure - though also commemorated at the same cemetery as William WILLIAMS, 26287, WR, we can see R. WILLIAMS 26289, LNL, is recorded as died 15 Apr 1918

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/279898/r-williams

???

M

[weshallremember]

SORRY MATLOCK

my error the Hale was W  HALE  18TH WELSH 28089

and in answer to your earlier question on the grave report it states bodies exhumed and reburied and disk found

anyway i have sent all this off to the C W G C

last time just to change a date of death took them a year !!!!!!!

so this might take some time

regards

Trevor

[Matlock1418]

6 minutes ago, weshallremember said:

SORRY MATLOCK

my error the Hale was W  HALE  18TH WELSH 28089

No probs, I had misread your [plentiful] capitals too - A was not his initial, it was W 

William HALE, 28089, 18WR - also on the Ploegsteert Memorial https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/873598/william-hale

10 minutes ago, weshallremember said:

anyway i have sent all this off to the C W G C

last time just to change a date of death took them a year !!!!!!!

so this might take some time

Patience mon brave! [We all need it with CWGC these days ]

M

 

[weshallremember]

what i was saying is on the grave report for William Williams 26287  you can not see the last digit of the number

and there were a few north lancs soldiers unidentified

so did they later identify Williams   Robert 

and his number is 26289 just that last digit missing from WILLIAM WILLIAMS COINCIDENCE OR NOT????????????????

  trevor 

[Matlock1418]

20 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

23 hours ago, weshallremember said:

how long did they have to wait to be able to claim

as he is listed as killed in March 1918

and the claim was  made  in June 1919

To make a claim if KiA there seems to have been no limit.  [If DoW or DoD ... Within seven years of wounds/injuries or removal from duty due to certified disease]

Awards: Typically at least six months needed to pass to confirm/presume death if considered 'missing' for an award to be made [claim could be made as soon as was wished - many men later found alive!].  That also gave the MoP six months or so from confirmed/presumed death to do the calcs.  If Separation Allowance was being paid it would continue until the pension kicked in, so there was no gap in income [usually more relevant for widows and children].

In this case the MoP made the award 18-7-19 and awarded 5/- pw from 7-6-19,  21.1c [under Article 21 1c - and back-dated to date of claim, not his death]

Strictly speaking the 1918 Royal Warrant would have applied at the date of award, but there was no Art. 21 1c in the 1918 RW.  So somehow the terms of the 1919 RW [which didn't come in until Sep 1919] appear to have been used.  Art. 21 1c under the 1919 RW meaning: the parent(s) of an unmarried soldier a pension of 5/- pw will be paid irrespective of pre-war dependance or age, infirmity or pecuniary need [these dependant's(s') requirements had been part of the 1918 RW] provided the soldier was under the age of 26 at the outbreak of war or date of joining the colours if later [Soldier's age had not been specified before]

One might suspect his mother's application might have been delayed by the strict requirements of the 1918 RW [terms of which perhaps couldn't be met ??] but somehow a 'nod' was recieved that an application might receive sympathetic treatment - and so it seemed to have proved [this is certainly not the first time I have seen such use of Art 21 1c from the 1919 RW during the applicability of the 1918 RW - it does rather seem like a sympathetic early application of the terms of the later RW in quite a few cases]

Until 1920 such pensions were 'grace & favour' and only after 1920 were they a statutory right - not that the rates changed 1919-46!

As we seem to have gone from one to two to back to one thread - did you spot my reply, above, to your enquiry?

M

3 minutes ago, weshallremember said:

what i was saying is on the grave report for William Williams 26287  you can not see the last digit of the number

The GRRF [26088 > 26087] seems clearer than the COG BR where the 2608? last digit is probably an extremely heavily typed 8 or perhaps overtyped = ?

The location of 18WR in late Mar and early Apr is quite suggestive of a date of death questionmark.

I wait your reply from CWGC with interest.

M

[weshallremember]

is it possible to change the heading to read

address and  death enquiry 26827 William Henry Williams  18th welsh ???????????????????

[Matlock1418]

8 minutes ago, weshallremember said:

is it possible to change the heading to read

address and  death enquiry 26827 William Henry Williams  18th welsh ???????????????????

As the OP you should be able to edit your original title.

IIRC: Hover your mouse pointer over the title you originally gave the thread, possibly from the first page/first post, and you should see an edit option, then take it away.

M

[weshallremember]

thanks m

[weshallremember]

looking at the killed for the 18th Welsh

on the  24th march 1918

43 were killed 

40  on the Arras Memorial 

2 others buried at BAC DU SUD CEMETERY some 21 Kilometres from the battle at MORY 

The cemetery was made in March 1918 by the 7th, 20th and 43rd Casualty Clearing Stations, 

he is the only soldier for that date apparently buried at CROIX DU BAC CEMETERY 

some 71 Kilometres from the battle at MORY ????????

Trevor

[Matlock1418]

16 minutes ago, weshallremember said:

he is the only soldier for that date apparently buried at CROIX DU BAC CEMETERY 

some 71 Kilometres from the battle at MORY ????????

I have lost track of who you are referring to! 

But in general:

• There were long wartime lines of medical evacuation [with men dying along the way], and
• During the post-war period of battlefield recovery and 'concentration' only a limited/reducing number of cemeteries remained open/had space to receive more casualties

... so men or remains could be transported long distances to find a final resting place.

I guess you should be able to likely determine which was more probable for your casualty

???

M

Edited 23 August by Matlock1418

[weshallremember]

i was referring to  26287 W H   Williams

who's sister had the red cross enquiry to say he was missing since 9TH April

and i was wondering why would they move him 71 kilometres away if he was that badly wounded that he died

when there were casualty clearing in the area

and if they did move him

why would the soldiers effects pension sheet above record say presumed  dead?????

and the pension record card say missing ??????

if they transported him back to Croix du bac  and he died of wounds and they buried him

 surely there must be a record 

oh and SDGW has him as killed in action on 24th????

all very confusing

 

Trevor 

Edited 23 August by weshallremember