hoping for some help if possible please

[Andrew1966]

Hi all. I have recently bought a 18pounder shell case dated 1917. Amongst the engraving i have found the name T Fitzgerald and what turns out to be his service number and 7th Battalion, The Norfolk Regiment. i have done the usual searching on both find my past and ancestry and have found his medal roll and index card which i have attached. however there seems to be absolutely nothing else available for him.  i obviously appreciate that records have been lost or destroyed but i was wondering if anybody might have some advice as to where else i might look. Many thanks in advance.

Regards

Andrew 

[DavidOwen]

This is the relevant war diary free to download once registered, also free 7 Battalion Norfolk Regiment | The National Archives It will not by all accounts name him unless you are extremely lucky but it will give you an idea of where he served and what was happening. As his MIC isn't dated the earliest he would have been overseas is 1st January 1916.

[chaz]

Ive posted elsewhere, the irony that, those that survived probably have less information than those who died or were injured.

cant find a prisoner or wounded file , likewise not died/killed in the time span for CWGC records. No pension record.

the only other way, is if the regiment has a researcher that can help.

I guestimate WW1 soldiers to be born 1895+_ 5 years on Ancestry search, no Terry so Terence. This suggests..

Birth 17 SEP 1898 • Marylebone, London, England   Death 15 DEC 1957 • Hammersmith, London, England

there is a Lorence in the 1901/1911 census but they suggest Terence, but looking at the Florence for the next family, I would say a corrupted Lorence for Lawrence.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

@PRC may have some Norfolk facts.

[PRC]

Not an area of the service numbering of the Norfolk Regiment I've given much attention to as they don't tend to turn up on Norfolk War memorials or Roll of Honour for those that served, which was my starting point.

The nearest I've looked at was in the 34xxx part of the range and that was a clear-out of the Eastern Command Depot in Ireland, which saw a transfer of men to the Norfolks from other Eastern Command Regiments like the Bedfordshire and Essex plus a few Royal Fusiliers. Some of them had already seen service in a Theatre of War with those Regiments. There were quite a few gaps - I suspect if fitness was an issue as a result of wounds or sickness they might have ended up with the Labour Corps and we all know the Labour Corps medal rolls like to record the barest minimum , (plus the individuals concerned were posted to the 3rd Battalion, Norfolk Regiment, and so may never have made it overseas to serve with a fighting Battalion of the Norfolks). A number of them were discharged from the 3rd Battalion and received the Silver War Badge - hence my interest.

A quick run through of near numbers, even without any surviving service records, has one of the classic signs of a draft from elsewhere - the surnames of the men I could find from at least the start of the batch were in alphabetical order. 35866 Brown, 35867 Butcher, 35869 Casey, 35872 Cousins, 35873 Dean, 35875 Farmer, 35876 Fitzgerald, 35877 Freshwater, 35878 Gatehouse, 35879 Gilbert, 35880 Gray, etc

As you can see there are also gaps.

I don't know if the surviving service records for 35865 John Edward Townsend, subsequently 260445 and WR/25677 Royal Engineers will therefore be of much help in providing clues as to how Terry Fitzgerald ended up serving with the Norfolks - he may have been part of a different group. FindMyPast have indexed him as born Leamington, Warwickshire c1881. Familysearch adds that they are burnt series records. I get matches on Ancestry under his Royal Engineers service nyumbers but not his Norfolk one. Unfortunately don't subscribe to FindMyPast \ Ancestry \ Fold 3 so can't check them out further.

35877 Bonner Stephen Freshwater has service records on FindMyPast under his subsequent Labour Corps number - 657139. They date them to 1919, so probably discharge records. He is indexed as born Stratford, Essex c1899. Familysearch don't have the records online, just the indexing, but they have then starting in 1917 with him serving in the Training Reserve - service number TR/9/30267. then the Norfolks and then the Labour Corps. They also reference something for him from 1921 serving with the London Regiment. All of them are classed as burnt series records. Ancestry have them as service records, but not indexed under the Norfolk Regiment number.

35879 Charles Henry Gilbert has service records on FindMyPast, dated to 1919, (so probably a discharge record) and has him born Islington, Middlesex c1900. Familysearch adds that they are burnt series records. Looks like Ancestry has them as pension records.

35880 Charles Edward Gray has service records on FindMyPast, dated to 1919, (so again probably a discharge record) and has him born Westminster, Middlesex c1900. Familysearch also has him recorded as Border Regiment 30949 and shows them as burnt series records. I couldn't readily spot them in the indexing on Ancestry.

No deaths amongst the men who could be identified - either a very lucky cohort or a transfer towards the end of the war.

It's a small sample, but hopefully enough to start identifying trends. Just basd on the highlights I would throw into the mix the birth registration of a Terence Fitzgerald, mothers' maiden name Enwright, registered with the civil authorities in the Marylebone District in the October to December quarter, (Q4) of 1899. Appears to have survived childhood - the only likely death registered in England & Wales was a 59 year old in the Hammersmith District of London in Q4 1957.

Hope that gets you started,
Peter

Edited 30 July by PRC
Typos

[chaz]

that looks like a match then Peter, thats the one I found earlier.The family tree has him born Sept 1898 and died Dec 1957.

unfortunately, the tree does not carry any WW1 info.

a further check only has the one Terry and the only WW1 Terence died during the war

[PRC]

1 hour ago, chaz said:

that looks like a match then Peter, thats the one I found earlier.The family tree has him born Sept 1898 and died Dec 1957.

unfortunately, the tree does not carry any WW1 info.

Sadly looks like standard level Ancestry family history research - the one I found was registered in 1899 not 1898. I only labour the point because I suspect some of those others' looks to be a similar age and so we could be looking at a draft from a Training Reserve Battalion in the last few months of the war when they reached 19.

Looking for possible birth matches:-
35867 Ferdinard Gerald Butcher - possible match, Ferdinand Gerald Butcher, Bosmere District of Suffolk, Q4 1899. (Only match in England & Wales 1837-2006)
35869 Jeremiah Casey - while there is quite a number, it's worth bearing in mind there was a Jeremiah Casey registered in the West Ham District in Q4 1899.
35872 Alexander George Cousins - there are three possibles in the birth records for England & Wales between 1860 and 1900, but the last of those was registered in the Islington District in Q3 1899.
35875 Richard Charles Farmer - again there are three possibles in the birth records for England & Wales between 1860 and 1900, but the last of those was registered in the Kingston District of Surrey in Q3 1899.
35877 Bonner Stephen Freshwater, possible match, West Ham District, Q4 1899, (no other choices in England & Wales 1837-2006).
35878 Alfred William Gatehouse - there are two possible matches in the birth records for England & Wales between 1860 and 1900, but the last of those was registered in the Camberwell District in Q4 1899.
35879 Charles Henry Gilbert - quite a lot of choices including two in 1899. One was Q3, Islington District while the other was Q4 Newark, Nottinghamshire District.

The Fitzgeralds were not the easier of families to track down - for the 1901 Census of England & Wales on the sources I'm using the surname has been transcribed as "Fitzgeald " And thanks to some extraneous dots the 1 year old we are interested, (suggesting a Q2 1899 to Q2 1900 birth), has been transcribed as "Tirince". Birth place is shown as Marylebone. The only adult in the household is his mother, Margaret Fitzgerald, aged 26 and born Marylebone. Margaret is recorded as married and the wife of the head of the family. Her other children living with her are James, (6) and William, (4) - both born Marylebone. The family were living in one of three households recorded at Carlisle Street, House 76, Marylebone, London.

The only match for the marriage of the parents in England & Wales was that of a Margaret Enwright to a James Fitzgerald, and that was recorded in the Marylebone District in 1893. There are birth matches for a James Edward Fitzgerald, mothers, maiden name Enwright, (Q3, 1894, Marylebone) and William Fitzgerald, mothers, maiden name Enwright, (Q4, 1896, Marylebone).  There are a number of deaths in and around London between 1901 and 1911 of a James Fitzgerald aged in the 20's and 30's.

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales the family were recorded at 10 Manning Place, Lisson Grove, London, N W. The 36 year old Margaret is now recorded as a Widow and working as a Laundress to support her family.  Children still single and living at home are James, (16, Grocers Porter), William, (14, Railway Van Guard), "Terrance", (11, at School) and new additions Margaret, (8) and Kathleen, (4),  - all born Marylebone. Once again with Terence we are looking at an 1899 or early 1900 birthday.

Can't see the details on the 1939 Register but that is a possible source of when the year change came in - year of birth is indexed as 1898. If it's the same man he was living at 97 Heathstan Road, East Acton, Hammersmith And Fulham.

2 hours ago, chaz said:

a further check only has the one Terry and the only WW1 Terence died during the war

The Terence who died on the 31st July 1916 serving as a Lance Corporal with the 2nd Battalion, Dorsetshire Regiment won't feature in the birth records for England & Wales. Soldiers Died in the Great War records him as born Newport, County Mayo, and resident New York City. From his service number, (9118), I would say he was a pre-war regular. The 1911 Census of England & Wales has a 19 year old Terence Fitzgerald, born Ireland, recorded in Barracks at Blackdown, Farnborough, and serving with the 1st Battalion, Dorsetshire Regiment.

As always with genealogy everything I've written could just a load of co-incidences so shouldn't be taken as gospel.

Hopefully proving or disproving it will help to find out more about the Norfolk Regiment Terence Fitzgerald.

Cheers,
Peter

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

15 hours ago, PRC said:

The Terence who died on the 31st July 1916 serving as a Lance Corporal with the 2nd Battalion, Dorsetshire Regiment won't feature in the birth records for England & Wales. Soldiers Died in the Great War records him as born Newport, County Mayo, and resident New York City. From his service number, (9118), I would say he was a pre-war regular. The 1911 Census of England & Wales has a 19 year old Terence Fitzgerald, born Ireland, recorded in Barracks at Blackdown, Farnborough, and serving with the 1st Battalion, Dorsetshire Regiment.

I wonder if @museumtom can tell us more about this man?

[PRC]

31 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

I wonder if @museumtom can tell us more about this man?

Sorry Dai,

I think it would add confusion rather than clarity if posted in this thread - the career of the Dorsetshire Regiment man, dead in 1916 and a pre-war recruit into that regiment - gives no indication that he served in the Norfolk Regiment. And that's before we even take into account that service number 35876 may not have been issued until 1918.

I'd suggest next steps would be for someone with subscription access to have a look at the surviving records of 35877 Bonner Stephen Freshwater, 35879 Charles Henry Gilbert and 35880 Charles Edward Gray, identifying recurring themes. My informed guess would be transferred to the Norfolk Regiment in the UK from a Graduated Battalion of the Training Reserve in mid\late summer 1918, with some going out to France for service with the 7th Battalion.

If that guess is correct then we would be looking for a candidate in the civil birth records for a "Terry" Fitzgerald born Q3/Q4 1899, probably in the south or east of England.

Cheers,
Peter

[chaz]

from the rolls

Freshwater previously 35877 Norfolk Regt on Labour roll as 657139   no other details apart from BWM/Vic roll and MIC

Gilbert  only Norfolk has discharge docs. 3rd Btn, first joined 15/10/1917. served in France March to April 1918 , GSW to L arm.

Grey... no record for a Grey or Gray 35880 on Ancestry or Fold3

 

35875 Norfolk Regt was Richard C Farmer, MIC and rolls only show the one regt. wounded but no docs

35874 Norfolk Regt only has W Donne, only info is UK British Jewry Book of Honour 1914-1918. no mic etc   4th Btn.

Edited 1 August by chaz

[PRC]

Apologies for the delay in following up – I put those Norfolk Regiment men on my Library lookup wishlist, but it’s taken me a while to get there.

35877 Bonner Stephen Freshwater eluded me other than a one page Part 2 Order, serving with the 4th (Reserve) Battalion, Norfolk Regiment, at Crowborough in May 1918.

After looking at the records for 35879 Charles Henry Gilbert and 35880 Charles Edward Gray it became clear there was no real overlap with 35865 John Edward Townsend.

I believe the key bits from those two records that might apply to 35876 Private Terry Fitzgerald are:-
 
Enlisted 13.10.17 (35879 Charles Henry Gilbert). 15.10.17. (35880 Charles Edward Gray).
First joined for duty 15.10.17 at Whitehall. (35879 Charles Henry Gilbert).
Posted 46th Training Reserve Battalion. (35879 Charles Henry Gilbert).
Posted 46th Training Reserve Battalion 16.10.17. (35880 Charles Edward Gray).
Service number TR/9/30131. (35879 Charles Henry Gilbert). TR/9/30158 (35880 Charles Edward Gray). TR/9/30267 (35877 Bonner Stephen Freshwater)
At Perham Down. (35879 Charles Henry Gilbert).
Transferred 4th (Reserve) Battalion, Norfolk Regiment, Crowborough, 07/12/1917. (35879 Charles Henry Gilbert). (35880 Charles Edward Gray).
Posted 17th I.B.D. B.E.F 10.4.18 (35879 Charles Henry Gilbert). (35880 Charles Edward Gray).
Embarked Dover 10.4.18. (35879 Charles Henry Gilbert). (35880 Charles Edward Gray).
Disembarked Calais 10.4.18. (35879 Charles Henry Gilbert). (35880 Charles Edward Gray).
Joined L IBD 10.4.18. (35879 Charles Henry Gilbert). (35880 Charles Edward Gray).
To join 7th Battalion 12.4.18. (35879 Charles Henry Gilbert). (35880 Charles Edward Gray).
Caught up with Battalion in the Field 16.4.18. (35879 Charles Henry Gilbert). (35880 Charles Edward Gray).

Cheers,
Peter

 

Edited 9 September by PRC
Typos