HENINEL-CROISILLES ROAD CEMETERY - Private P J INGERSON - G/53209 - Royal Fusiliers 2nd Bn.

[Guy Rawlings]

I recently made my first visit to Heninel- Croiselles Road Cemetery near Arras. Probably the first time a family member had done so. My great Uncle Phillip Ingerson and comrades are buried there. Sadly to date I have no family photos and very little information regarding him. Regardless it was still a moving experience. My son accompanied me.

Pvt Ingerson is also recorded on the Barnstaple. War Memorial.

Private P J Ingerson - CWGC Certificate.pdf

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. His medal index card shows his entitlement to the War and Victory Medals, meaning he entered at theatre of war after 31/12/1915. In the link you will find the relevant war diaries. You can download these free after you register, also free. 
You might get lucky if you look at local newspapers around the time of his death. There might be an announcement and maybe a photo. 
 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353567

[Matlock1418]

Welcome to GWF

From WFA/Fold3:

He was recorded as Killed in Action

The sad aftermath was that his mother, Annie, claimed and was awarded a dependant's pension, since "either or both of the parents is or are wholly or partially incapable of self-support from age or infirmity and they are in pecuniary need" until 8.5.22 when Renewal refused.

Her age, c. 1922, was recorded as 51 years

Her addresses were initially: 169 Willesden Lane, London NW and then: 12 Barbican Terrace, Barnstaple

M

Edited 6 August by Matlock1418
source

[Matlock1418]

2RF War Diary from TNA - currently free to download after free registration

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353567

M

[Guy Rawlings]

50 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Welcome to GWF

From WFA/Fold3:

He was recorded as Killed in Action

The sad aftermath was that his mother, Annie, claimed and was awarded a dependant's pension, since "either or both of the parents is or are wholly or partially incapable of self-support from age or infirmity and they are in pecuniary need" until 8.5.22 when Renewal refused.

Her age, c. 1922, was recorded as 51 years

Her addresses were initially: 169 Willesden Lane, London NW and then: 12 Barbican Terrace, Barnstaple

M

Many thanks I will look into the war diary. Thank you for the information above to.

Edited 6 August by Guy Rawlings

[Guy Rawlings]

ingerson (1).pdf

[Winson Saw]

19 hours ago, Guy Rawlings said:

Many thanks I will look into the war diary. Thank you for the information above to.

Hello Guy Rawlings,

 I'm from Penang,Malaysia.Doing a personal research about your father,George Shirley Rawlings and his time in Malaya.I know he was appointed as Collector of Land Revenue in Malacca in 1940'S and acted as Resident Commissioner of Malacca a few times.

I do have a few of his information in Malacca.Are you interested.

Best regards,

Winson Saw

[Guy Rawlings]

Hi Winson,

Thanks for reaching out. My fathers name was Phillip C Rawlings named after the above soldier. He served first with the Royal Warwick's and then with the 8th (Midlands) Parachute Battalion during Normandy and was medically discharged in 1946. I am not aware of a relative by the name of George Shirley Rawlings. I hope you find the connection though.

 

Best Regards

Guy

[BereniceUK]

The Western Times, Friday 18th May 1917.

 

[Guy Rawlings]

Thanks so much for sharing this article. I really do appreciate it. He is remembered. 

Edited 13 August by Guy Rawlings

[Colin W Taylor]

Hi,

Sorry for the late comments but PJ Ingerson was serving with 20th Battalion Royal Fusiliers which were formerly the 3rd University and Public Schools Battalion. The Commonwealth War Graves website entry for his death stating 2nd Bn is incorrect and does not match the original burial return below.

The 20th Royal Fusiliers war diary is here: 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353834.

Hope this helps.

Colin

 

[Guy Rawlings]

Thanks Colin,

 

I had noted this discrepancy over battalions. 2nd or 20th ? What do you make of this document?

[Colin W Taylor]

Hi Guy,

I think the published cemetery record above is where the problem lies. It would seem the clerk made an error or ignored the burial register which showed him buried alongside a number of his comrades from the 20th Bn. His medal roll entry states 20th Bn along with a number of men with similar service numbers.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/6142888:5119?tid=&pid=&queryid=24611861-7312-4048-afeb-6c92bb50f8e3&_phsrc=vGX12&_phstart=successSource

The 20th Bn in 33rd Division were in the line near the cemetery on the 14th April supporting an attack by another battalion and attacked themselves two days later on the 16th and lost heavily. The 2nd Bn were further to the north near Monchy le Preux with 29th Division.

I'm not sure the evidence is compelling enough for the CWGC to change their entry though.

Colin

[Colin W Taylor]

Guy,

I've studied 20th Royal Fusiliers in some depth* and they were in line near the Heninel-Croisilles Road which runs N-S through the middle of the map below (from a previous project). The cemetery is around the 'F' in Fusiliers. My presumption is that Phillip would have been killed in the area of the front line by shellfire resulting from the attack by the Scottish Rifles.

I hope it helps

Colin

 

 

(Copyright C Taylor)

 

 

(*I've written a book on the Public Schools Brigade of which 20th RF were part).

[RussT]

8 hours ago, Colin W Taylor said:

I'm not sure the evidence is compelling enough for the CWGC to change their entry though.

I would suggest that the CWGC made a original compilation error which has been simply propagated through to their digital record when the original was transcribed by scanning.

I would regard the available evidence to be compelling, including your assessment of the 20th Bn's location/burial location.

In addition to the CWGC's own Graves Registration Report and his Medal Roll to which you refer, his SDGW record and his Soldiers' Effects Record also have him as 20th Bn.

As an aside, his SDGW records him as being formerly S/4/173592 ASC although his RF service number is incorrectly recorded as 53200.

It's an extremely simple matter to tell the CWGC to amend their records (link below) and I would suggest the OP does so, attaching the various bits of evidence provided in this thread.

Casualty Amendment Form (cwgc.org)

Images below, courtesy of Ancestry & FMP

Regards

Russ

 

 

[RussT]

I suspect the CWGC used the original hand-written Graves Registration Report (below) in the which the "0" (zero) in "20" has merged a bit with the "/" in "20/" - compounded by the use of "ditto" in Ingerson's entry.

Out of the 10  RF men with the 20th Bn on this page, its seems 4 (Ingerson, Coulshaw, Skuse and Havis) are incorrectly commemorated by the CWGC as being with the 2nd Battalion.

Russ

 

[Guy Rawlings]

Dear Colin and Russ,

I really appreciate both your replies to the thread and evidence provided. As a dual outcome hopefully the correction can be made for the record. Moreover I am learning more about Phillips final location leading up to his death. Having recently visited the grave for the first time in brings it home even more.

I also noted from the war diary that on the 14th April 1917 the battalion where on the Hindenburg line. I presume this refers to the Arras stretch? Although deaths are recorded for the day before being 5 number.

Kind regards 

 

Guy

[RussT]

Let us know here how you get on with your request to the CWGC in amending his Battalion detail.

Of course, it might take them a few years !

Russ

4 hours ago, Guy Rawlings said:

battalion where on the Hindenburg line. I presume this refers to the Arras stretch?

I think the map added by Colin says that doesn't it?