Midshipman’s Dirk

[JMB1943]

A recent post on the “Arms and Other Weapons “ forum (thread: Sword Identification ) has featured a midshipman’s dirk that is marked with a royal cypher of  King George (V or VI)?

The locket of the accompanying scabbard shows the initials G. de P., and these initials should be identifiable by searching FreeBMD and then the Navy List.

My impression from the photos is that the dirk dates from GR V rather than GR VI, but even the latter could now be 70 yrs old so I could be mistaken.

All that said, I do need some help from the naval experts here, namely:

If the Royal Cyphers of GR V and GR VI are different, can they be differentiated on an aged blade?

My initial search of births on FreeBMD was the period 1909-1953, but with my uncertainty over appropriate ages to become a midshipman, I suspect that the date range should be extended at the early end and curtailed at the late end. 

What should be my revised date range?

Any other input to help chase down G. de P. would be gratefully received.

Regards,

JMB

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RNCVR]

I too read that post & checked the Navy Lists I have for the  immediate pre war period & also the July 1914 list but found nothing under G de P, or P that matched up to a person.

I too feel that Dirk would be a Geo V version.

[JMB1943]

@RNCVR,

MODS: I realise that this looks like a WW2 topic, but until the naval experts have given me a pre-Great War year to start a second FreeBMD search, this person is ONLY a possible, not a definite.

Thanks for looking at the Navy Lists that you have.

I recorded 14 x G. de P. names in my search of FreeBMD from 1909-1953, and then checked those against the CWGC database for WWI & II.

The third name on the list was a hit, namely

Lt. Geoffrey Louis de Pury, RN lost with HMS Ardent on 08-June-1940, aged 25; this fits with his birth registered in Q1, 1915.

Unless there was another G. de P. who served (and was killed) in the Great War, de Pury is likely the original midshipman.

I will assume that he entered BRNC in 1933 at age 18 and see if I can find any thing more.

Regards,

JMB

[RNCVR]

@JMB1943   He likely entered the Royal Naval College as a Naval Cadet prior to 1933 for his initial training prior to being appointed as a Midshipman.  They could enter quite young if they could pass the entry examination which was quite challenging. Many boys required prior private tutoring to enable them to get thru the exams.

From the July 1914 Navy List - "Candidates for entry in Jan must be more than 13 & 4 months, but not more than 13yrs & 8 months of age on the preceeding 1st December."

However I am pretty certain the age was raised post war. & I dont have a 1930's Navy List to check that out for you.

Cadets did 3 terms at the RNCC each year for 4 years  before going to sea on a Training Cruiser for the sea & practical part of their training. Then advanced to Midshipman after their final exams.   If he came in in around age 14 in 1927 or 28, then he might have made Midshipman circa 1932-33.

I would be fairly cetain his Midshipman's Dirk would be a George V cypher.  George V died on Jan 20, 1936 but outfitters would likely use up their old stock before acquiring George VI cypher dirks.

Hope this assist you somewhat,

Best wishes, Bryan

[JMB1943]

@RNCVR,

This indeed assists me—— mightily!

That detailed knowledge of ages vs regulations is what I lack, so could not be certain that I was searching across the correct time-span.

Also with so many of these genealogical problems, it was lucky for us that he was one of the unfortunate victims of war. Had he not been killed, no CWGC record and so very much harder to trace.

It looks like his time-frame is right for the GR V dirk, so I’ll have to see if I can find the V and VI cyphers online to compare with the photo.

Thanks again for your help with cracking his ID.

Regards,

JMB 

EDIT: He is on the July,1937 Navy List as a Sub-LT for 1935, Nov. 16th, presumably date of enrollment at BRNC?

P.S. MODS: Thanks for your forebearance. Feel free to lock this down now, as definitely WW2.

 

Edited 20 August by JMB1943

[KizmeRD]

It wasn’t known as BRNC at that point in time, and the trainees were Officer Cadets, not Midshipmen or Sub Lieutenants.

M.

 

 

[JMB1943]

@KizmeRD,

Thank you for those corrections.

Any thoughts on the Nov. 16 date shown in the Navy list?

Regards,

JMB

[RNCVR]

It might be his seniority date for Sub Lieut.

[KizmeRD]

He would have attended RNC Dartmouth for four years before going to sea as a Midshipman, and then getting his promotion to Acting Sub-Lieutenant 28 months later.

Working back from Nov 1935, he would have been a Midshipman August 1933 - November 1935.

His subsequent seniority date as a Lieutenant was 16 March 1938.

M.

 

[RNCVR]

He would have been an A/Sub Lieut before Sub Lieut.

 

Eit: Apologies, see that noted in Kiz's post above.

Edited 20 August by RNCVR