German convicts in the army

[knittinganddeath]

I have read in some American newspapers that incarcerated people in Germany i.e. prisoners or convicts were allowed to serve in the army, but I'm having trouble finding any corroboration (or refutation) because all my searches just lead to information about prisoners of war.

So, is it true or just propaganda?

Thanks for any help :-)

[AOK4]

9 minutes ago, knittinganddeath said:

I have read in some American newspapers that incarcerated people in Germany i.e. prisoners or convicts were allowed to serve in the army, but I'm having trouble finding any corroboration (or refutation) because all my searches just lead to information about prisoners of war.

So, is it true or just propaganda?

Thanks for any help :-)

I guess prisoners could have served in Armierungs-Bataillone (unarmed working units). That's were physically and mentally unfit and "unwanted" men (like certain leftist politicians) were sent to. There were also the Militärgefangenen-Kompagnien, but in both types of units, the men were normally unarmed and working under harsh conditions.

Jan

[knittinganddeath]

35 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

I guess prisoners could have served in Armierungs-Bataillone (unarmed working units).

Thank you Jan, this seems plausible.

[AOK4]

10 minutes ago, knittinganddeath said:

Thank you Jan, this seems plausible.

It's the only units (if any) where men like that could have been placed. However, I haven't read anything about convicts in Armierungs-Bataillone. There may have been enough work for those convicts in Germany itself as a lot of factory workers, miners etc.  were serving in the army.

[charlie2]

Pre-war one had to be physically, mentally and morally fit to be allowed to serve. You might find

https://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/deutsch/archiv/weltkampf/wer0810.html

and

https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Reichs-Militärgesetz
of interest.

Charlie

 

[AOK4]

8 hours ago, charlie2 said:

Pre-war one had to be physically, mentally and morally fit to be allowed to serve. You might find

https://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/deutsch/archiv/weltkampf/wer0810.html

and

https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Reichs-Militärgesetz
of interest.

Charlie

 

Pre-war, yes. But during the war was a totally different matter. Most of these "unfits" were then sent to work in Armierungs-Bataillone.

[knittinganddeath]

20 hours ago, charlie2 said:

Pre-war one had to be physically, mentally and morally fit to be allowed to serve. You might find

Thank you for these links :-) I think these requirements were common in most pre-war armies, the question is what happens when the going gets tough. The Americans were very loathe to relax their moral standards, but (according to some American newspapers) the British and French didn't have such qualms.

 

21 hours ago, AOK4 said:

There may have been enough work for those convicts in Germany itself as a lot of factory workers, miners etc.  were serving in the army.

Thanks for this idea. It is also logical, especially given that some American journalists wrote that German convicts were making cloth and uniforms for the army.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, knittinganddeath said:

British and French didn't have such qualms.

When it comes down to a war on a world scale the British have never been able to observe niceties.  Throughout history they have always found it impossible to field a large army on their own.  As a result they have pretty much always fought in alliance with others and just tried to make the best of whatever manpower they could get.  That modus operandi was helped by the immersive culture of their army and its “regimental system” that was contrived to give every man a sense of home regardless of his background, melded with relatively harsh discipline for those who stepped out of line, but tempered by clear rewards for good behaviour.

In such circumstances it was usually possible to make good use of petty criminals, and more serious offenders either, knuckled under, or found themselves flogged mercilessly (sometimes to death) if before 1881, or physically punished in other ways if subsequently.  It was a simple kind of carrot and stick methodology, but nevertheless surprisingly successful.  The outcome was that many ex criminals fared well and turned their lives around, with significant numbers successfully carving out a career and reaching the higher ranks below commissioned officer.  I cannot comment about the French in this context.

NB.  It was never found necessary or appropriate to form ‘penal battalions’.

Edited 30 August by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

Hi,

several laws and "Ordnungen" governed the criminal law prior and during the war.

There was the

StGB Strafgesetzbuch for the civil law,

the

Militärgesetzbuch for military law

and the so called

Wehrordnungen which specify the Militärgesetzbuch and give procedural ways to implement it.

The Militärstrafgesetzbuch was last changed in 1915 during the monarchy and abolished after the war (replaced in 1921).

The §§ for the duty and right to serve with regards to criminal offenders were not changed during the war.

However:

There were slightly different §§ in the Militärstrafgesetzbuch of 1872/74 and the Wehrordnung of 1888 when it comes to criminal offenders and their duty to serve.

The Militärgesetzbuch states in §37 that those with the duty to serve and who were convicted to Zuchthausstrafen (more severe than Gefängnisstrafen) or who were deemed unfit to serve for others reasons were not eligble to serve in the German Army or Navy. The conviction to Zuchthaus almost always carried with it the loss of certain rights for between 2-10 years (Bürgerliche Ehrenrechte) for Zuchthaus and 1-5 years for sentences to jail (Gefängnis). Usually the loss of the Ehrenrechte was the "other" reason to be declared unfit to serve.

The Wehrordnung of 1888 (with certain modifications up to 1913) states that more complex in §18:

It basically says that the people sentenced to Zuchthaus or Gefängnis or to pay a fine are not eligble to serve until they fully served their criminal sentence and/or paid their fines and had their Bürgerliche Ehrenrechte restored. If so, they were considered to serve in Arbeiter-Abteilungen if the military choose to let them in.

So while the Militärgesetzbuch of 1872/4 wouldn´t have the ones convicted to serve in the Zuchthaus, but under some certain circumstances would take these sentenced to Gefängnis, the Wehrordnung of 1888 might take all after their sentence was up and only in Arbeiter-Abteilungen.

So even during peace time Germans with a criminal past were not automatically banned from service in the military.

By the way, as Germany was declared to be under military law in 1914 all citizens were judged under military law until 1917 brought some changes.

GreyC

 

 

Edited 31 August by GreyC

[knittinganddeath]

@GreyC thank you very much, this was very illuminating and exactly what I needed.

@FROGSMILE thank you for your input, interesting that the policy (such as it was) seems to have worked fairly well.

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, knittinganddeath said:

seems to have worked fairly well.

Sadly pretty much lost now due to political correctness and a moral hypocrisy that fosters a fear of public criticism.  I think the German system was more organised back then. 

Edited 31 August by FROGSMILE