Which Regiment

[Christopher Walton]

Hi guys I’m very new to this group and shamefully new to learning things in the First World War. I have been doing some ancestry work and have found one of my grandfather which I have put on here ( middle row end right) I know absolutely nothing other than his obituary in1952 said he was in the royal garrison artillery. I am no expert and the image isn’t clear if you zoom in but the cap badge doesn’t look like the RGA. His name was John Whitworth from east Lancs (Rawtenstall) if anyone could shed any light on it that would be greatly appreciated. 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Christopher Walton said:

Hi guys I’m very new to this group and shamefully new to learning things in the First World War. I have been doing some ancestry work and have found one of my grandfather which I have put on here ( middle row end right) I know absolutely nothing other than his obituary in1952 said he was in the royal garrison artillery. I am no expert and the image isn’t clear if you zoom in but the cap badge doesn’t look like the RGA. His name was John Whitworth from east Lancs (Rawtenstall) if anyone could shed any light on it that would be greatly appreciated. 

Army Service Corps (ASC) I think.  The artillery association suggests that they might be from the artillery brigade ammunition column that was manned predominantly by the ASC along with a few from the artillery. They appear to be Territorial Force and a T can be seen on the shoulder title on the man seated on the ground at far right.

Edited 31 August by FROGSMILE

[jonbem]

There was this chap in the Home Guard in WW2 Lancashire, England, World War II Home Guard Records, 1940-1945 - Ancestry.co.uk

Name	John Whitworth
Gender	Male
Enlistment Age	55
Event Type	Military Enlistment
Birth Date	abt 1885
Residence Date	1940
Residence Place	Rawtenstall, Lancashire, England
Enlistment Date	22 Nov 1940
Regiment	31st County of Lancaster (Rossendale) Battalion
Spouse	Eva Whitworth

[FROGSMILE]

The ‘Rossendale Battalion’ refers to his WW2 Home Guard unit.

Edited 31 August by FROGSMILE

[kenf48]

Rawtenstall was the base of the East Lancashire Brigade Company, East Lancashire Divisional Transport and Supply Column (TF)

HQ Hulme Barracks Manchester (Westlake)

[PRC]

Hi @Christopher Walton and welcome to the forum

Could be my dodgy old eyesight, but looks like both the two Corporals at the front have a "T" over what appears to be a three letter shoulder badge - and as @FROGSMILE has pointed out "ASC" would be a good match for that. Given the relaxed manner of all involved I'm wondering if it might even have been taken at a pre-war annual camp.

If it was pre-war then would have been a unit local to where John was living.

Hopefully you're aware that most British Other Ranks records of the Great War era went up in flames in the Blitz when German bombs burnt out the London warehouse where they were stored. So it does take a bit more digging around to try and find things out. One line of approach is on the genealogical side.

Looking at the pre-war censuses for a John Whitworth born c1885 with a Rawtensall connection there appears to be only one candidate. The 1891, 1901 and 1911 Censuses of England & Wales all show him as born Stubbins, Lancashire. Edit 1901 Census shows Edenfield. In 1911 he was an Insurance Agent working on own account, unmarried and living with his father Henry John and step-mother Emma at Holmfield House, Rawtenstall.

At the time of his birth Stubbins seems to have fallen within the civil parish of Tottington Higher End. Both Tottington Higher End and Rawtenstall fell within the civil registration district of Haslingden. A check of that gives only one likely birth record - a John Whitworth, mothers' maiden name Ruthven, whose birth was registered in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1885. That at least means it's unlikely we have any other forenames to factor in to the search for military records.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 31 August by PRC
Amend 1901 Census information

[jonbem]

Here is another potential

UK, World War I Pension Ledgers and Index Cards, 1914-1923 - Ancestry.co.uk

Name	John Whitworth
Gender	Male
Rank	Private
Record Type	Military
Birth Date	1884
Residence Place	Blackburn
Military Service Region	North West, North West
Military Country	England
Discharge Date	7 May 1919
Service Number	370049
Corps, Regiment or Unit	LABOUR CORPS
Service Branch	Military (Army)
Title	WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers
Description	Pension Record Ledger
Reference Number	3/Mw/No.9376

[jonbem]

MIC

UK, British Army World War I Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920 - Ancestry.co.uk

Roll

UK, World War I Service Medal and Award Rolls, 1914-1920 - Ancestry.co.uk

SWB

UK, Silver War Badge Records, 1914-1920 - Ancestry.co.uk

Edited 31 August by jonbem

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, jonbem said:

Here is another potential

UK, World War I Pension Ledgers and Index Cards, 1914-1923 - Ancestry.co.uk

Name	John Whitworth
Gender	Male
Rank	Private
Record Type	Military
Birth Date	1884
Residence Place	Blackburn
Military Service Region	North West, North West
Military Country	England
Discharge Date	7 May 1919
Service Number	370049
Corps, Regiment or Unit	LABOUR CORPS
Service Branch	Military (Army)
Title	WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers
Description	Pension Record Ledger
Reference Number	3/Mw/No.9376

That PLP shows Bronchitis and Cardiac

A related pension index card also shows LC, KOYLancs, 265631, 370049 and 1098104 - Blackburn and Barrow in Furness

Another PIC shows LC, KOYLI, 1898104, 370049 - Barrow in Furness

= ??? KOYLI or KORL ??? 

Edit: MIC shows King's Own Royal Lancaster, 265631 ... it could be that KOYLI is 1098104/1898104 [a seven digit post-war number - with a possible SR at MoD/TNA ??]

M

Edited 31 August by Matlock1418
edit add 2nd 7 digit

[PRC]

22 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

A related pension index card also shows LC, KOYLancs, 265631, 370049 and 1098104 - Blackburn and Barrow in Furness

Another PIC shows LC, KOYLI, 1898104, 370049 - Barrow in Furness

Looks like there are some 7 digit army service numbers in there, although not sure which one is correct.
1098104 came from the block allocated to the Royal Horse Artilery and Royal Field Artillery in the 1920 Army re-numbering.
1898104 came from the block allocated to the Royal Engineers.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/new-british-army-numbers-issued-in-1920/

Service records may possibly be in transition from the MoD to the National Archive if that is the case.

Word of caution - the pre-war censuses have a John Whitworth of approximately the right age, born Pontefract, Yorkshire, but who was recorded in 1891, 1901 and 1911 living in Blackburn. From what is indexed on FMP for the 1921 Census of England & Wales he turns up in Preston in a household by himself.

There is a separate 1921 census return for a John Whitworth, born Edenfield, Lancashire, c1884 who was recorded in the Rawtenstall parish.  Other resident is a Clara Whitworth, born Wednesbury, Staffordshire, c1882. More information will be available with subscription access.

There are 3 weddings of a John Whitworth, (no other forenames) recorded in the Haslingden civil registration district between 1911-1921 - and plenty more elsewhere in England & Wales alone. One in Q4 1911 looks like it might have involved a Clara Benn. Could be a co-incidence, and age is a liitle bit out, but on the 1911 Census of England & Wales there is a 35 year old unmarried domestic servant, Clara Benn, born Wednesbury, Staffordshire, who was recorded living in the household of her employer at 8 Carr Mount, Rawtenstall.

Cheers,
Peter

[Christopher Walton]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The ‘Rossendale Battalion’ refers to his WW2 Home Guard unit.

Yes he was also in the home guard that is right thanks

12 minutes ago, PRC said:

Looks like there are some 7 digit army service numbers in there, although not sure which one is correct.
1098104 came from the block allocated to the Royal Horse Artilery and Royal Field Artillery in the 1920 Army re-numbering.
1898104 came from the block allocated to the Royal Engineers.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/new-british-army-numbers-issued-in-1920/

Service records may possibly be in transition from the MoD to the National Archive if that is the case.

Word of caution - the pre-war censuses have a John Whitworth of approximately the right age, born Pontefract, Yorkshire, but who was recorded in 1891, 1901 and 1911 living in Blackburn. From what is indexed on FMP for the 1921 Census of England & Wales he turns up in Preston in a household by himself.

There is a separate 1921 census return for a John Whitworth, born Edenfield, Lancashire, c1884 who was recorded in the Rawtenstall parish.  Other resident is a Clara Whitworth, born Wednesbury, Staffordshire, c1882. More information will be available with subscription access.

There are 3 weddings of a John Whitworth, (no other forenames) recorded in the Haslingden civil registration district between 1911-1921 - and plenty more elsewhere in England & Wales alone. One in Q4 1911 looks like it might have involved a Clara Benn. Could be a co-incidence, and age is a liitle bit out, but on the 1911 Census of England & Wales there is a 35 year old unmarried domestic servant, Clara Benn, born Wednesbury, Staffordshire, who was recorded living in the household of her employer at 8 Carr Mount, Rawtenstall.

Cheers,
Peter

No that isn’t him but thank you very much 

[Christopher Walton]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

That PLP shows Broncitis and Cardiac

A related pension index card also shows LC, KOYLancs, 265631, 370049 and 1098104 - Blackburn and Barrow in Furness

Another PIC shows LC, KOYLI, 1898104, 370049 - Barrow in Furness

= ??? KOYLI or KORL ???

M

No that’s not him but thanks 

[Matlock1418]

7 minutes ago, Christopher Walton said:

No that’s not him but thanks 

No problem - just trying a process of potential identification / elimination.

M

[PRC]

22 minutes ago, Christopher Walton said:

No that isn’t him but thank you very much 

You had a choice of two from the civil records - the Pontefract born man, (linked to Blackburn & Preston) or the Stibbins \ Edenfield born man, (linked to Rawtenstall). Do you mean it's neither?

In that case to help us to help you can you expand a bit more on the family. One of the key bits of information in military records that gets indexed is birth place, followed by next of kin and generalised place of their residence, (i.e Rawtenstall, rather than a specific address) while the soldier was serving and where they were discharged to. Unfortunately most records are indexed by service number(s), which could change for all sorts of reasons and unit(s). Without knowing numbers and units we have to start resorting to family details unless someone manages to stumble upon the record by using other lines of enquiry.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[Christopher Walton]

7 minutes ago, PRC said:

You had a choice of two from the civil records - the Pontefract born man, (linked to Blackburn & Preston) or the Stibbins \ Edenfield born man, (linked to Rawtenstall). Do you mean it's neither?

In that case to help us to help you can you expand a bit more on the family. One of the key bits of information in military records that gets indexed is birth place, followed by next of kin and generalised place of their residence, (i.e Rawtenstall, rather than a specific address) while the soldier was serving and where they were discharged to. Unfortunately most records are indexed by service number(s), which could change for all sorts of reasons and unit(s). Without knowing numbers and units we have to start resorting to family details unless someone manages to stumble upon the record by using other lines of enquiry.

Cheers,
Peter

 

Yes sorry it is the Edenfield man his mother was Ruthven thanks Peter 

[CorporalPunishment]

5 hours ago, Christopher Walton said:

Hi guys I’m very new to this group and shamefully new to learning things in the First World War. I have been doing some ancestry work and have found one of my grandfather which I have put on here ( middle row end right) I know absolutely nothing other than his obituary in1952 said he was in the royal garrison artillery. I am no expert and the image isn’t clear if you zoom in but the cap badge doesn’t look like the RGA. His name was John Whitworth from east Lancs (Rawtenstall) if anyone could shed any light on it that would be greatly appreciated. 

For what it's worth the Corporal in the front row is RAMC so there's a possibilty of them being from an ambulance unit rather than RA.        Pete.

[Christopher Walton]

1 minute ago, CorporalPunishment said:

For what it's worth the Corporal in the front row is RAMC so there's a possibilty of them being from an ambulance unit rather than RA.        Pete.

Thanks 

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

For what it's worth the Corporal in the front row is RAMC so there's a possibilty of them being from an ambulance unit rather than RA.        Pete.

I spotted the cap badge too, but was puzzled that the corporal to whom the cap presumably belongs was devoid of Red Cross badges from both his arms, which seemed very odd as it was such a key part of RAMC identity.  It made me wonder if he was a unit medical orderly (the TF organisation of medical support to their units had long been significantly different to the regulars).

Edited 31 August by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

13 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I spotted the cap badge too, but was puzzled that the corporal to whom the cap presumably belongs was devoid of Red Cross badges from both his arms, which seemed very odd as it was such a key part of RAMC identity.

Frogsmile, when did the Red Cross arm badges first come into use?.         Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

On 31/08/2024 at 19:49, CorporalPunishment said:

Frogsmile, when did the Red Cross arm badges first come into use?.         Pete.

When the RAMC was formed in 1898 it (the Red Cross badge) had already been established by it’s OR predecessors in the Medical Staff Corps, and the Army Hospital Corps as part of their uniform.  The badge seems to have first appeared on their uniforms in 1864**, not long after the International Red Cross was created.

Significantly in the Volunteer Force (i.e. infantry and artillery) units they created their own bearer sections, who were trained and qualified by the regular corps, and who then subsequently wore the Red Cross badge on their regimental uniforms.  This was for pragmatic reasons so that they could drill at their stations and not be separate.  This was a unique arrangement unmatched in the regular forces where the medical services remained separate.

** this was a period of considerable change and updating following the debacle of the Crimean War, and Indian Mutiny.  Together with lessons obtained by British observers of the American Civil War these were fed into the modernisation process that the Army underwent following the abolition of the Board of Ordnance, a seismic change in the organisation of the British military.

Edited 2 September by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

When the RAMC was formed in 1898 it (the Red Cross badge) had already been established by it’s OR predecessors in the Medical Staff Corps, and the Army Hospital Corps as part of their uniform.  The badge seems to have first appeared on their uniforms in 1864**, not long after the International Red Cross was created.

Significantly in the Volunteer Force units they created their own bearer sections, who were trained and qualified by the regular corps, and who then subsequently wore the Red Cross badge on their regimental uniforms.  This was for pragmatic reasons so that they could drill at their stations and not be separate.  This was a unique arrangement unmatched in the regular forces where the medical services remained separate.

** this was a period of considerable change and updating following the debacle of the Crimean War, and Indian Mutiny, together with lessons obtained by British observers of the American Civil War that were also fed into the modernisation process that the Army underwent.

Thanks for that Frogsmile, great information and very interesting. It does seem odd that the man is not wearing them though. It did cross my mind at first that he could possibly be East Lancs but I can't square that with the shape of the badge really.        Pete.

Edited 31 August by CorporalPunishment

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Thanks for that Frogsmile, great information and very interesting. It does seem odd that the man is not wearing them though. It did cross my mind at first that he could possibly be East Lancs but I can't square that with the shape of the badge really.        Pete.

I think you’re right that he’s RAMC, I just don’t understand the missing badges.

[PRC]

Tried a search of the British Newspapers Archive for John without any luck, although there are possible matches for his father in the run up to the Great War holding posts in the local Conservative Association. If it is the same Henry John \ H.J. Whitworth then may make him newsworthy enough for his son to be referenced.

There were also some articles about the Rawtenstall Territorials that might be worth investigating if someone has subscription access.

Both images courtesy the British Newspaper Archive.

Cheers,
Peter

[Christopher Walton]

42 minutes ago, PRC said:

Tried a search of the British Newspapers Archive for John without any luck, although there are possible matches for his father in the run up to the Great War holding posts in the local Conservative Association. If it is the same Henry John \ H.J. Whitworth then may make him newsworthy enough for his son to be referenced.

There were also some articles about the Rawtenstall Territorials that might be worth investigating if someone has subscription access.

Both images courtesy the British Newspaper Archive.

Cheers,
Peter

Will have to look at those cheers 

[kenf48]

22 hours ago, PRC said:

There is a separate 1921 census return for a John Whitworth, born Edenfield, Lancashire, c1884 who was recorded in the Rawtenstall parish.  Other resident is a Clara Whitworth, born Wednesbury, Staffordshire, c1882. More information will be available with subscription access.

A bookkeeper 10 Carr Mount Rawtenstall not much else, no children employed by D & D S&S Club 12 Bury Road Rawtenstall (no idea! but given his involvement both the British Legion I suspect s and s is soldiers and sailors but I may, as I often am be wrong)

I have done some searches on the East Lancashire Brigade Company (ASC) (TF) I have not found John Whitworth (yet) in the extant records but it should be borne in mind they were all transferred to the Regular ASC in September 1916 and renumbered with a T4/prefix.

I have found Wallace Ireland 55 Market Street Edenfield who enlisted aged seventeen in January 1914, numbered 906. On disembodiment his protection certificate has him at the same address having served in France and renumbered T4/245381 Whilst John Whitworth is older my guess is that this could be one of the younger men in the photograph.

Going to the BWM and  VM medal roll we find the East Lancs ASC are grouped together from T4/245327 to T4/245490 renumbered on the 1st September 1916. It is of course far too easy to find Whitworth in that list but he is not there!

{As an aside and out of interest given the above debate about the RAMC the last page for the East Lancs includes the first page for the North Midland Mounted Brigade T and S column where there is listed an RAMC CQMS who was transferred with his comrades to the regular (R) ASC as above.  I don't know but wonder if the T and S columns of the TF included the RAMC  in their establishment.

Image courtesy of Ancestry}

Back on Topic

A wildcard search on FMP does not return a Whitworth in the T4/245*** series. So he may have transferred to the RGA before 1st September 1916.

The 42nd East Lancashire Division was the first to be posted overseas and was sent to Egypt, so those who went with the Division would have the 14-15 Star.

That roll starts with the CSM T/2 Maddock (T4/244834) annoyingly but unsurprisingly he is not on that list but at least that tells us they were renumbered sequentially on transfer to the regular ASC, e.g.random examples 1029/245425;1032/245426/.1031 is 'missing'. They share landing dates in theatre of 25th September 1914 and 10th September 1914.

We have to assume the newspaper obituary is correct and he transferred to the Royal Garrison Artillery prior to the 1st September 1916. I can find no John Whitworth in the Medal Rolls which means he may not have served overseas.

newspaper search shows he was a Councillor in 1922

The Ramsbottom Observer Friday October 25 1946 has a long article on the Ratenstall British Legion the opening sentence,"Mr John Whitworth who aptly described himself as the "watchdog" of British Legion matters in the town..."

It appears his position was Secretary, but in 1937 he was the Chairman

                                                                   n

Image from BNA Ramsbottom Observer April 23 1937

I'm warming to this man irrespective of his service in the war.  I'll keep digging.