Which Regiment

[Christopher Walton]

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

A bookkeeper 10 Carr Mount Rawtenstall not much else, no children employed by D & D S&S Club 12 Bury Road Rawtenstall (no idea! but given his involvement both the British Legion I suspect s and s is soldiers and sailors but I may, as I often am be wrong)

I have done some searches on the East Lancashire Brigade Company (ASC) (TF) I have not found John Whitworth (yet) in the extant records but it should be borne in mind they were all transferred to the Regular ASC in September 1916 and renumbered with a T4/prefix.

I have found Wallace Ireland 55 Market Street Edenfield who enlisted aged seventeen in January 1914, numbered 906. On disembodiment his protection certificate has him at the same address having served in France and renumbered T4/245381 Whilst John Whitworth is older my guess is that this could be one of the younger men in the photograph.

Going to the BWM and  VM medal roll we find the East Lancs ASC are grouped together from T4/245327 to T4/245490 renumbered on the 1st September 1916. It is of course far too easy to find Whitworth in that list but he is not there!

{As an aside and out of interest given the above debate about the RAMC the last page for the East Lancs includes the first page for the North Midland Mounted Brigade T and S column where there is listed an RAMC CQMS who was transferred with his comrades to the regular (R) ASC as above.  I don't know but wonder if the T and S columns of the TF included the RAMC  in their establishment.

Image courtesy of Ancestry}

Back on Topic

A wildcard search on FMP does not return a Whitworth in the T4/245*** series. So he may have transferred to the RGA before 1st September 1916.

The 42nd East Lancashire Division was the first to be posted overseas and was sent to Egypt, so those who went with the Division would have the 14-15 Star.

That roll starts with the CSM T/2 Maddock (T4/244834) annoyingly but unsurprisingly he is not on that list but at least that tells us they were renumbered sequentially on transfer to the regular ASC, e.g.random examples 1029/245425;1032/245426/.1031 is 'missing'. They share landing dates in theatre of 25th September 1914 and 10th September 1914.

We have to assume the newspaper obituary is correct and he transferred to the Royal Garrison Artillery prior to the 1st September 1916. I can find no John Whitworth in the Medal Rolls which means he may not have served overseas.

newspaper search shows he was a Councillor in 1922

The Ramsbottom Observer Friday October 25 1946 has a long article on the Ratenstall British Legion the opening sentence,"Mr John Whitworth who aptly described himself as the "watchdog" of British Legion matters in the town..."

It appears his position was Secretary, but in 1937 he was the Chairman

                                                                   n

Image from BNA Ramsbottom Observer April 23 1937

I'm warming to this man irrespective of his service in the war.  I'll keep digging.

 

That is the correct John Whitworth his first wife was Clara lived at 20 Carr mount and was in the British legion thank you for that it’s great 

[kenf48]

I have his address as 10 Carr Mount

He was nominated as a Conservative councillor November 18 1921 which solves the census mystery as he is shown as Secretary of the Discharged and Demobilised Soldiers and Sailor Club, one of the many organisations that began after the war, and a fascinating study in themselves given the political and social affiliations which were brought together to form the (Royal) British Legion:-

The British Legion was formed on 15 May 1921, bringing together four national organisations of ex-Servicemen that had established themselves after the First World War:

The National Association of Discharged Sailors and Soldiers

The British National Federation of Discharged and Demobilized Sailors and Soldiers

The Comrades of The Great War

The Officers' Association

It does appear though that the Club was still in existence in 1948 at least and he was continuing as Secretary, though 'memories of heroism. were dwindling.

Plodding on this extract is a response to the unveiling of a Memorial Tablet at the Club, a very long article in which he declares himself to be an ex-serviceman

Ramsbottom Observer March 17 1922 (ibid)

Out of Interest, the Tablet if anyone else is reading this, carved from oak wonder where it is now

(ibid)

I still can't find details of his service, other than previously cited in the RGA.

 

 

[AndrewSid]

This might be of interest to the member tagged below as that ASC Company is one i believe he has researched in detail.

@TullochArd

Andy

[TullochArd]

On 02/09/2024 at 09:17, kenf48 said:

Out of Interest, the Tablet if anyone else is reading this, carved from oak wonder where it is now

 

I am pleased to confirm that the Branch Memorial "In Grateful Recognition of Those who gave their all" (no names) is now located on the south wall of the balcony at St Mary's (CE) Parish Church, Rawtenstall and very well looked after. "Every man once before any man twice" and "Justice before charity".  The branch was founded with the help of the town's first woman Mayor, Miss Carrie Whitehead in April 1920 and was part of National Federation of Discharged and Demobilized Sailors and Soldiers (NFDDSS).

I'll see what I've got on John Whitworth .......... but for today I can also confirm that he is named as J. Whitworth on the St Mary's (CE) Parish War Memorial as one of the 295 "Served and Returned"  It may be of some relevance that this impressive memorial uses the term "Gun." (Gnr) and "Dr." (Dvr) when referring to surviving soldiers of the RA and ASC. ........... perhaps importantly J. Whitworth is recorded here as "Pte." ? 

Edited 7 September by TullochArd

[kenf48]

10 hours ago, TullochArd said:

I am pleased to confirm that the Branch Memorial "In Grateful Recognition of Those who gave their all" (no names) is now located on the south wall of the balcony at St Mary's (CE) Parish Church, Rawtenstall and very well looked after.

Good to know thank you for posting

[TullochArd]

On 01/09/2024 at 15:36, kenf48 said:

I'm warming to this man irrespective of his service in the war.  I'll keep digging.

Me too kenf48.  

John is married before the War and clearly a fellow with a decent education.  This supports his clerical and civic appointments before and after the War. On 14 Oct 1911 John (25) marries married Clara May Benn (35).  John’s father shown on the marriage certificate as Henry John Whitworth “Gentleman” of Holmfirth House and John as an “Agent”. Clara is shown as daughter of a Wheelwright named Richard Benn who is living at Carr Mount. The 1911 Census shows Henry John as “Private means - former Bank Clerk” and John as “Insurance Agent for Britannic Assurance Company.” Clara is recorded on another document as a “General Servant (Domestic)” employed by an elderly couple in Rawtenstall, who she has worked for certainly since 1901, at 8 Carr Mount. Alice May Whitworth, who was born in 1913, was adopted by John and Clara in 1924. The 1939 Census shows him as Clerk (Building Trade).

His accountancy background led me AOC 038198 Pte/ASC S(upply)440607 John Whitworth from Manchester (Rawtenstall is often referred to as Rawtenstall, Manchester at this time) but I had to eliminate him as his surviving SR clearly shows he's not our man.

• Based on this recurring age and accountancy background scenarios can we eliminate T4/065599 Dvr John Wm. Whitworth ASC Expeditionary Force Canteens?  I'm afraid I'm not in a position to follow up in the immediate future.
• What do you make of the front right Corporal sitting on/next to a pile of jackets with corporals tapes on them? That;s a lot of full screws for what appears to be a bunch of tramps.

Edited 10 September by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, TullochArd said:

What do you make of the front right Corporal sitting on/next to a pile of jackets with corporals tapes on them? That;s a lot of full screws for what appears to be a bunch of tramps.

A separate canteen/mess tent for the corporals and bombardiers.  The open front with projecting roof is visible.  Such facilities were definitely encouraged to promote the maintenance of discipline and ensure that off-duty social fraternisation wasn’t encouraged with the gunners, as you will know.

Edited 9 September by FROGSMILE