mikereme Posted 6 September Share Posted 6 September (edited) Hello Everyone, I have come across this picture on the IWM site showing a British column withdrawing through the town of Caeste (France) during the German Offensive on the Lys 1918... i am very interested in the building in the background with the unusual mast that is on the building... Would i be right to assume that this is a Signals unit Antenna (mast), and the building would be a Relay type station? couLd anyone in this great forum shine light on this... I thank you in anticipation Edited 6 September by mikereme WORDS MISPELT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 6 September Share Posted 6 September I can't tell you anything about the masts, but the town is Caëstre and as the Royal Signals did not exist at the time, it would be the Royal Engineers Signal Service that will be of interest to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 6 September Share Posted 6 September I believe this the location today. The Mairie is on the left hand side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikereme Posted 6 September Author Share Posted 6 September Hi Chris, Brilliant thank you.. I an reading your book.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 6 September Admin Share Posted 6 September From The Signal Service in the European War of 1914 - 1918 (France) The Signal Service in the European War of 1914-1918 (France) : Priestley, Raymond Edward, 1886- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive No other plates in the book show masts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikereme Posted 6 September Author Share Posted 6 September This is very interesting... would you agree these are Signal communication masts of some kind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 6 September Admin Share Posted 6 September Looks likely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikereme Posted 6 September Author Share Posted 6 September Just now, DavidOwen said: Looks likely Thank you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 6 September Share Posted 6 September I'm not sure. I would expect to see some wires between the masts. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikereme Posted 6 September Author Share Posted 6 September (edited) would they be a radio masts for morse code etc Edited 6 September by mikereme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 6 September Admin Share Posted 6 September The one on the left is a match for a telephone mast, the two others could be radio masts (not likely to be balloon masts as to close to property) If it is a full blown retreat the wires may have been cut prior to dismantling the masts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 6 September Share Posted 6 September It would be worth trawling the war diaries of the Second Army Deputy Director of Signals (WO95/288) and 2 Signal Construction Company (WO95/337). There may be signal network route maps that would help, or other mentions of the location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikereme Posted 6 September Author Share Posted 6 September Thank you chris... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 6 September Share Posted 6 September TLLT, under The Battle of Hazebrouck 12 to 15/04/1918, lists the Divisions of 15 Corps as 29, 31, 33 and 40. The WD of 29 Div RE Signals Co records that 29 Div HQ moved to Caestre on 12/04/1918. It mentions communications via an Army Test Hut and an Officer who was out laying lines (there are some very clear photos of soldiers with line laying reels in the April 1918 WD of 31 Div RE Signals Co). It seems that there was some kind of a Signals Centre in Caestre. Every town in the Lines of Communication would have had a Signals Centre I suppose, certainly those with a Corps HQ. The WD of 29 Div HQ confirms that the Div HQ was in Caestre from 12/04/1918 to 14/04/1918 when it was moved back to St Sylvestre-Cappel. There are lots of papers attached to the April WD, including a Report on Operations. I have not read through them all yet. Image TNA WO 95/2294 via Ancestry Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikereme Posted 7 September Author Share Posted 7 September 8 hours ago, brianmorris547 said: TLLT, under The Battle of Hazebrouck 12 to 15/04/1918, lists the Divisions of 15 Corps as 29, 31, 33 and 40. The WD of 29 Div RE Signals Co records that 29 Div HQ moved to Caestre on 12/04/1918. It mentions communications via an Army Test Hut and an Officer who was out laying lines (there are some very clear photos of soldiers with line laying reels in the April 1918 WD of 31 Div RE Signals Co). It seems that there was some kind of a Signals Centre in Caestre. Every town in the Lines of Communication would have had a Signals Centre I suppose, certainly those with a Corps HQ. The WD of 29 Div HQ confirms that the Div HQ was in Caestre from 12/04/1918 to 14/04/1918 when it was moved back to St Sylvestre-Cappel. There are lots of papers attached to the April WD, including a Report on Operations. I have not read through them all yet. Image TNA WO 95/2294 via Ancestry Brian Hi Brian, this us just what I looking for.... thank you so much.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmorris547 Posted 7 September Share Posted 7 September I had a look at the 15 Corps Signals Co War Diary but it does not say what there was at Caestre between 12 and 14/04/1918. It does mention things I did expect e.g 51 Airline Section RE were engaged in erecting Poles to carry cables. In Divisional WDs the Signals Companies were engaged in laying lines, some buried, from Div HQ to Infantry Brigade HQs, RFA Batteries etc. I would take the advice of Chris and read those papers. I have often found IWM photographs to have inaccurate legends. From looking at the Google Maps image Chris posted and the IWM photo and comparing it to maps I get the impression that the military convoy is not withdrawing from the village (although it seems to be going in the same direction as the civilians) but is on the road which goes south east to La Rouge Croix i.e. towards the front line. Can someone else have a look at this to see what they think. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikereme Posted 7 September Author Share Posted 7 September 11 minutes ago, brianmorris547 said: I had a look at the 15 Corps Signals Co War Diary but it does not say what there was at Caestre between 12 and 14/04/1918. It does mention things I did expect e.g 51 Airline Section RE were engaged in erecting Poles to carry cables. In Divisional WDs the Signals Companies were engaged in laying lines, some buried, from Div HQ to Infantry Brigade HQs, RFA Batteries etc. I would take the advice of Chris and read those papers. I have often found IWM photographs to have inaccurate legends. From looking at the Google Maps image Chris posted and the IWM photo and comparing it to maps I get the impression that the military convoy is not withdrawing from the village (although it seems to be going in the same direction as the civilians) but is on the road which goes south east to La Rouge Croix i.e. towards the front line. Can someone else have a look at this to see what they think. Brian Hi Brian, they are definitely moving away from the front (Armentiers).. I do agree with you being inaccurate as it's states artillery unit... I bef to differ maybe a ASC convoy... with the one soldier per horse as an arty init would have a team of six horses with three soldiers... but definitely. Moving away from the front... thank you for your input buddy.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green_acorn Posted 9 September Share Posted 9 September (edited) We were never allowed to call it antenna, which is something commonly referred to as an "aerial" for radio, for 'wireless tx/rx'. Telephone line can be laid in the air between poles or trees, which is then known as an aerial line. The small dots seen around the frame, in particular the horizontal cross pieces, look like small porcelain insulators, to electrically isolate each telephone line from others . The frame certainly suggest a telephone/telegraph frame to me and it looks like one designed and produced to bring down lines from telegraph/telephone poles, which you can see in the background, and organise them on the frame then connect them to the switchboards in a Signals Centre. When you look at the later image from one of the pictorial newspapers, which is probably from 1915/16, without a line frame you end up with big bundles of telephone/telegraphy lines and unless each line is very carefully tagged and layed out in the bundle they can get "mixed up" very easily, which makes it very hard when fault finding. Cheers, Chris PS: I base my observations on my experience many years ago as a former Australian infantry Regimental Signaller. Thankfullly I never spent time in the Line Section of my battalion, though had a decent amount of experience with company line work. Edited 9 September by green_acorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikereme Posted 9 September Author Share Posted 9 September (edited) 18 minutes ago, green_acorn said: We were never allowed to call it antenna, which is something commonly referred to as an "aerial" for radio, for 'wireless tx/rx'. Telephone line can be laid in the air between poles or trees, which is then known as an aerial line. The small dots seen around the frame, in particular the horizontal cross pieces, look like small porcelain insulators, to electrically isolate each telephone line from others . The frame certainly suggest a telephone/telegraph frame to me and it looks like one designed and produced to bring down lines from telegraph/telephone poles, which you can see in the background, and organise them on the frame then connect them to the switchboards in a Signals Centre. When you look at the later image from one of the pictorial newspapers, which is probably from 1915/16, without a line frame you end up with big bundles of telephone/telegraphy lines and unless each line is very carefully tagged and layed out in the bundle they can get "mixed up" very easily, which makes it very hard when fault finding. Cheers, Chris PS: I base my observations on my experience many years ago as a former Australian infantry Regimental Signaller. Thankfullly I never spent time in the Line Section of my battalion, though had a decent amount of experience with company line work. Hello Chris, This is awsome thank you... based on what you have said would you as an experienced Regimental Signaller suggest that the signals CP would be in the Building with the mast/antenna... please advise buddy Edited 9 September by mikereme WORDS MISPELT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green_acorn Posted 10 September Share Posted 10 September (edited) 18 hours ago, mikereme said: Hello Chris, This is awsome thank you... based on what you have said would you as an experienced Regimental Signaller suggest that the signals CP would be in the Building with the mast/antenna... please advise buddy Mkereme, I qualify my experience as 'limited' having spent most of my time as a radio operator, with some dabbling in line work, I never worked as a linie at Bn level, so am limited in my knowledge of Signal Centre work. Having said that and noting Chris Bakers comment about the modern day Mairie (Town Hall) on the otherside of the intersection, I assume the old one was there as well. In which case a SigCen being on the ground floor (closed shutters) of the building opposite with a "line frame" on the roof crest, with possibly two antenna poles for sloping wire antennas, does seem logical. That would put the SigCen in a very good location if the Div HQ was operating from the mairie, and allow very simple movement of Div and Corps Signal Despatch Service riders, as well as local unit messsage runners to and fro. Cheers, Chris Edited 10 September by green_acorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikereme Posted 10 September Author Share Posted 10 September Cheers Chris..and thank you for your input 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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