Where do I go with just a medal roll & index reference?

[elfinblues]

Dear everyone,

This is my first time posting here, but I stumbled upon your website and realised how much knowledge there is here, so I'm hoping that you might be able to help.

I have recently set out on a mission to learn about the First World War service of my great-uncle, Charles Herbert Humphrey, from Sussex. The sum total of what I knew about him when I started was that, according to his son (who is no longer alive), is that he "drove one of the diamond-shaped tanks at the Battle of the Somme". That's it. I have tried to find his service record on Ancestry, with no luck, but through a process of elimination I did find possible entries for him in the WW1 Service Medal and Award Rolls and on the Medal Rolls Index Cards. The most likely seems a Charles Herbert Henry who served as a gunner with the Machine Gun Corps (HB) (91530) and also with the ASC (MT) (M2/229436) and the Royal Engineers (310563). Because these sources do not contain any address or next of kin information, though, I cannot be certain that it is him. Might anyone be able to offer any advice on what my best move from here would be? I am rather a newcomer to this and would enormously appreciate any advice. Thank you so much in advance.

[chaz]

welcome to the forum.

unfortunately, its often the case that those who survived may have very little in the way of a paper trail than those wounded or killed.

 

, an ancestry, using Sussex as a place lived and +-10 years as a date of birth  search, gives 7 results  looks like the same man.

born 1888 died 1973. does this sound right? if so there could be a family tree but as normal no military information.

widening the search , only gives one Herbert Humphrey in the Tank Corps 318232. Fold 3 also only shows a MIC and roll for this man.

Of course, its not 100% the man used his original Christian names.  Hence dropping a Charles, or changing Herbert to Bert.

Would there ba a distant relation still alive who can add to what you know?

Edited 8 September by chaz
name changes.

[PRC]

11 hours ago, elfinblues said:

I have recently set out on a mission to learn about the First World War service of my great-uncle, Charles Herbert Humphrey, from Sussex.

Hi @elfinblues and welcome to the forum

My personal advice would be to get them well and truely bedded down in your family tree, via the civil records. A check of the birth records for England & Wales 1837-2006 for example for a Charles Herbert Humphrey born Sussex 1883 +/- 2 years for example doesn't throw up a single example - but there is a Herbert Charles, mothers' maiden name Parsons, whose birth was registered in the Thatcham District of Sussex in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1885.

Removing the year range still only leaves you with four examples and only two were of an age when they might have fought in the Great War.

1] Charles Herbert Humphrey, mothers' maiden name Don, West Derby District of Lancashire Q4 1889.
2] Charles Herbert Humphrey, mothers' maiden name Snashall, Cuckfield District of Sussex, Q1 1889.

There are several ways the genealogy approach can help.

Firstly military records are quite often indexed under place of birth, so knowing where that is shown on the various pre-war census can be a good indicator you are on the right track, even if a man lied about his age in order to be able to serve.. Looking at the man whose birth was registered with the civil authorities in the Cuckfield Civil Registration for example, the most likely match was the son of James and Fanny who was born Keymer, Sussex, according to the census returns for 1891, 1901 and 1911.

Secondly a man of that age is going to be of prime marrying age, (he was single and living with his parents on the 1911 Census of England & Wales), and if married then there is the possibility of children. If either marriage or children took place during the period he was serving then grooms' occupation on the marriage certificate \ fathers' occupation on the childs' birth certificate may help. It may just simple state "a soldier" or it can give bits of information all the way up to rank, serial number and unit plus a location prior to marriage that shows where he was stationed.

I don't have subscription access to FindMyPast but from what I can see indexed there for the 1921 Census of England & Wales there is a Charles Herbert Humphrey, born Keymer c1889, who was recorded living in a household, in the Waldon, Uckfield Parish of Sussex. (On the 1911 Census of England & Wales Charles and his family were recorded living at White House Cottage, Waldon). Other household members are:-
Elizabeth Kate Humphrey, born Burwash, Sussex c1883.
Fanny Humphrey, born Burwash, Sussex c1855
Louisa May Humphrey, born Sussex c1893.

Could be a co-incidence but the marriage of a Charles H. Humphrey to a Louisa M. Burfield was recorded in the Uckfield District in Q3 1913. Unfortunately doesn't look like the couple had any children - at least not as far as the birth records of England & Wales are concerned.

Not a complete bust as the address prior to marriage on the wedding certificate and the address on the 1921 Census of England & Wales can help with indicating where he might have regarded as his normal home address at the time of the preparation of the 1918 Absent Voters List, (AVL). For more on how this can help and the known surviving AVL's see our parent site here https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

Apologies if that is a whole shoal of red herrings

11 hours ago, elfinblues said:

according to his son (who is no longer alive), is that he "drove one of the diamond-shaped tanks at the Battle of the Somme".

There were actually battles on the Somme in 1916 and two in 1918. In each case they were actually campaigns that covered a number of battles - Flers-Culotte on the 15th September 1916 saw the first use of tanks.

Forum member @delta has written about the first tank crews, so if Charles took part in that first battle he may be aware of him.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 8 September by PRC
Typos

[John(txic)]

Elfin,

 

Looking at the Pension Records on Fold3 (saved for the nation by the Western front Association) I think I have found him.  He might be 51765 H C Humphrey, Royal Fusiliers; widow Daisy Alice, of 97 Elm Drive, Hove.  

Edited 8 September by John(txic)
Add Regiment

[Jim Strawbridge]

I agree with the other postings. If we have details of him as a civilian someone here may be able to home in on his military life. A 1901 or 1911 census would do it or at least what is known about full name, date of birth, where he lived in Sussex, etc.

[elfinblues]

Hello everyone, and thank you so much for taking the time to help a slightly nonplussed rookie... 

My apologies for not including more information about my great-uncle up front - it would have saved you a lot of trouble. I can confirm that Charles Herbert Humphrey, mothers' maiden name Snashall, Cuckfield District of Sussex, Q1 1889.  His actual date of birth was 30th December 1888. It shows up as 'Q1 1889' because he was born just before the new year but registered just after. He did live in Waldron at the time, yes.

Charles, or Charlie (as he was known in the family), was indeed married - he married Louisa May Burfield in 1913 (who sadly died young in 1932) but you're correct, PRC: they had no children, either before, during or after the war. I have not yet ordered their marriage certificate, but I will take your advice and do so, PRC. Charlie remarried in 1934 and did have two children with his second wife. I am in contact with their daughter, but she sadly knows very, very little about her father's service in the Great War.

As for census details, 1901 shows that Charlie (aged 12) was living in Waldron, Sussex with:
James A Humphrey (a farm bailiff)
Fanny Humphrey
Walter Humphrey
James A Humphrey
Frank A Humphrey
Florence J Humphrey

In 1911, aged 22 and working as a domestic gardener, he was still in Waldron, Sussex, at White House Cottage with:
James A Humphrey
Fanny Humphrey
Frank A Humphrey
Florence J Humphrey

[elfinblues]

P.s. I just noticed a stupid and rather misleading error in my original post - "The most likely seems a Charles Herbert Henry who served as a gunner with the Machine Gun Corps (HB) (91530) and also with the ASC (MT) (M2/229436) and the Royal Engineers (310563)." "Henry" should, of course, have read "Humphrey".

[rksimpson]

Hi

 

Does anyone in the family have his medals, they will give the answer to his service number and regiment?

regards

Robert

[PRC]

34 minutes ago, elfinblues said:

As for census details, 1901 shows that Charlie (aged 12) was living in Waldron, Sussex with:
James A Humphrey (a farm bailiff)
Fanny Humphrey
Walter Humphrey
James A Humphrey
Frank A Humphrey
Florence J Humphrey

In 1911, aged 22 and working as a domestic gardener, he was still in Waldron, Sussex, at White House Cottage with:
James A Humphrey
Fanny Humphrey
Frank A Humphrey
Florence J Humphrey

And for completeness , in 1891 was living at 2 Ockley Cottages, Keymer and recorded as Charles H, (although genealogy sources have understandably transcribed him as Charles K. thanks to the census takers handwriting). Father James A. was already working as a Farm Bailiff - which might increase the potential for him to be reported on in the local newspapers.

Charles consistantly is recorded in the census record 1891-1921 with place of birth as Keymer.

Father James A. was aged 42 in 1891, 52 in 1901 and 62 in 1911, but doesn't appear to be on the 1921 Census of England & Wales. There is a strong candidate for his death in a 69 year old James Albert Humphrey, registered in the Eastbourne District in Q2 1917. No obvious entry in the Probate Calendar. I'm only spotting a death notice in the edition of the Sussex Express, dated 13th April 1917, which is available on the British Newspaper Archive, (BNA). Unfortunately I don't subscribe so can't see the full notice in the Births, Marriages and Deaths column but believe he died in hospital on the 11th. May be worth checking it out and also looking for other reports.

I then tried a search for Waldron and Humphrey and got an interesting return for the edition of the Surrey Express dated 27th April 1917 which might potentially be related to both James death and the soldier you are interested in - usual standard of BNA conversion of image to text on display!

Image courtesy The British Newspaper Archive.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 8 September by PRC
Typo

[elfinblues]

Thank you so much, Peter. It is encouraging that you found a newspaper story that refers to our likely candidate as 'gunner' C. Humphrey - this ties in with the 'Gnr' rank that shows on his medal rolls index card ...

... or, I should say, what I take to be his medal rolls index card.

[Allan1892]

49 minutes ago, PRC said:

I then tried a search for Waldron and Humphrey and got an interesting return for the edition of the Surrey Express dated 27th April 1917

Sussex Express -- image courtesy of Find My Past -- no story attached

Edited 8 September by Allan1892

[elfinblues]

How amazing to find a photograph!! I'm pretty sure that's him, though the image is dark, and, if it is him, it's the earliest photo I've seen of him, so I will send it to his daughter, who will know immediately. Thank you so much.

How frustrating, through, for his to be the only name there that is not accompanied by the name of a regiment or any other details... A rank - gunner - is given, though, and this again fits with our likely candidate on the medal rolls and MICs.

Does anyone know if the order of assignments on the medal rolls reflects the soldier's actual order? In other words, might this Charles have started with the RASC (MT), driven his tanks with the MG Corps (HB) and then finished with the Royal Engineers? I ask because the entry on the index cards gives that info in a different order

[kenf48]

22 minutes ago, elfinblues said:

In other words, might this Charles have started with the RASC (MT), driven his tanks with the MG Corps (HB) and then finished with the Royal Engineers?

The Index Cards were an administrative tool for use in the Medals Office the document of record is the Roll.

His medals were issued by the Royal Engineers which means that was his last unit (they would have the address on demobilisation to where the medals were sent by registered post.

He is in a group of men on the Roll who follow a similar pattern of posting.

310567 Hartley was attached to the 2nd Tank Brigade Signal Company, signalling was a responsibility of the RE. FMP has a document in which this soldier gave evidence at a Court of Enquiry on 2nd February 1918 in France when the CQMS had committed suicide at the base on the 28th January.

The service record of 310557 Marks has survived he was also a Gunner transferred to the Signals Section on the 27th August 1917. I guess Pte Humphrey was in the same group.

I would agree with your assumption he started with the ASC then Tanks and finally RE (Signals).

If he first went to France with the ASC his medalswould be named to that Corps.

[BillyH]

Note that H.B. denotes Heavy Branch of the Machine Gun Corps.  From the Long Long Trail (link below) it can be seen that  "The Tank Corps was formed from the Heavy Branch MGC on 27 July 1917" 

The Tank Corps - The Long, Long Trail (longlongtrail.co.uk)

Tieing in with this his MGC No. of 91530 appears to have been issued in March-July 1917 (see document attached). He probably started with the Army Service Corps and obviously the Royal Engrs. (who issued his medals) was last.

BillyH.

Machine Gun Corps - Service Numbers.pdf

Edited 8 September by BillyH

[PRC]

Without subscription access I can't do too much delving, but heres what I'm seeing for those numbers around his Tank Corps numbers - hopefully it will narrow down the search.

91521 Francis Joseph Lay. FMP are showing surviving service records for him, born Lavendon, Buckinghamshire c1897. However as they date them to 1919 I suspect these are discharge records. Familysearch don’t have the records online but do index what can be seen on microfilm at one of their Family History Centres. They have indexed them as burnt series records. Fold3 and probably Ancestry have them indexed as service records.

91522 Robert William Lee. FMP are showing a surviving service record, born Midhurst, Sussex c1898 and commencing 1916. Familysearch don’t have the records online but do index what can be seen on microfilm at one of their Family History Centres. They have indexed them as burnt series records, commencing as Army Service Corps s\n 2/229312, then Machine Gun Corps and then Tank Corps – the last two with the same service number. Fold3 and probably Ancestry have them indexed as service records.

91523 Richard Edward Lanceley \ Lancley. No obvious service record. MiC shows Tank Corps only.

91524 James Henry Maidment. No obvious service record. MiC shows Tank Corps only. Captured 24th March 1918 serving with the 8th Battalion. (International Committee of the Red Cross record).

91525 Frank McIntosh. No obvious service record. MiC shows Tank Corps only. Died of Wounds 25th October 1917. Soldiers Died in the Great War shows his original unit as Army Service Corps s\n 266636.

91526 James Lawrence McKevitt. No obvious service record. MiC shows Tank Corps only.

91527 Charles Ernest Middleton. No obvious service record. MiC shows Tank Corps only. Would received the Military Medal while serving in France with the 8th Battalion.

91528 Jonathan Bertie Mansel.No obvious service record. MiC shows Tank Corps only. Killed in Action 29th September 1917 with the Gun Carrier Section, Tank Corps. Soldiers Died in the Great War shows his original unit as Army Service Corps s\n 273533.

91529 Spedding Oddy. No obvious service record. MiC shows Tank Corps only.

91530 Charles Herbert Humphrey

91531 Ernest Cornelius Howard. No obvious service record. MiC shows Tank Corps only.

91532 Francis Victor Handel. No obvious service record. MiC shows Tank Corps only.

91533 No match under Tank. Probably Henry W. Howarth. MiC ASC s\n M2/229292 then Machine Gun Corps 91533 then Royal Engineers 310583. No obvious service record.

91534 T.E. Hampson. No obvious service record. SWB MiC shows Tank Corps only but no associated service medal MiC. No obvious pension card Fold3.

91535 No match.

91536 Alfred Hendry. No obvious service record. MiC shows Tank Corps only. FMP have a 1918 Medical Admission Register entry for him.

91537 Samuel Arthur Thomas Hefford. No obvious service record. MiC shows Tank Corps only.

91538 Alfred Burdon Ibbetson. No obvious service record. MiC shows Tank Corps only.

91539 Harry Jackson. No obvious service record. MiC shows Tank Corps only.

91540 No match under Tank. Probably John Ovrett Kersey, 91540 Machine Gun Corps then 44711 Durham Light Infantry. FMP have something indexed as a service record under the Durham Light Infantry s\n, but as it is for a J.O. Kersey I suspect it’s one of their one pagers – a memo \ casualty list \part two orders etc that also happens to mention him and which had been found in another mans’ records.

Speculation at the moment but the order in which the names run is suggestive of a bulk transfeer, although for some reason the H-I-J-K's come after L-M-O.
The lack of reference to an Army Service Corps service number on most of the MiCs is suggestive of the transfer taking place in the UK rather than them being redirected after arriving in France. The absence of service medals for 91534 T.E. Hampson might also be seen as suporting that the transfer from the A.S.C occurred in the UK.

Cheers,
Peter

[elfinblues]

Wow - thank you all so, so much. What a great, knowledgeable community you all make up. I'm very much the beginner in WWI research, so what you chaps are able to glean from so little is truly amazing. Thank you.

I thank you all for your help, but I have a couple of specific questions relating to two of the replies:

Kenf48 - You say that 310567 Hartley was attached to the 2nd Tank Brigade Signal Company, that 310557 Marks was also a gunner transferred to the Signals Section 1917 and that you assume Pte Humphrey was in the same group. Is it, then, fairly standard that adjacent service numbers are a reliable guide that those groups of men served in the same units?

PRC (Peter) - a similar question, really - One common denominator in a few of the entries you listed is the 8th Battalion. As in my last query, does the fact that men with service numbers close to that of my (likely) great-uncle make it likely, or just possible, that he was also in the 8th Tank Corps?

[kenf48]

M2/229435 James Chater gave his occupation as a 'motor driver' on being conscripted on the 6th November 1916.

Sent to Grove Park for assessment the same day he passed his "Learners Test'. He was in medical category B.1. After a month's instruction he left the UK for France on the 30th November and was posted to "Spares"

He was medically examined again in France and marked as 'Permanent Base'

This accords with Spr.Humphrey medal awards in that we know he did not go to France until 1916, or after the 31st December 1915 as he was not awarded a 14-15 Star

3 minutes ago, elfinblues said:

Is it, then, fairly standard that adjacent service numbers are a reliable guide that those groups of men served in the same units?

All near number sampling can do is give for men in the Corps is give an indication as to when they joined the Corps. We can cross reference with other records, for example the MGC (Heavy Branch) was raised in June 1916. The Medal Rolls can give an indication too.  In the absence of a service record you have to start somewhere and the 8th Battalion, on the balance of probability looks reasonable.It is admittedly easier to draw firm conclusions in Infantry Regiments.  The problem with the MGC in particular is men were sent where needed.I believe the Companies were initially alphabetical this site https://sites.google.com/site/landships/home/narratives/1917/cambrai-narratives gives an indication of 2nd Tank Brigade in 1917

The subsequent transfer to the Signals Section and posting to RE is quite definitive and shows a large number of men apparently transferred and renumbered at the same time.

[kenf48]

91521 Lay M2/196792

Joined 19 October 1916

Transferred to Tank Corps (MGC(H)) 20th December 1916 in the UK

To France 1st July 1917

14.6.1918 repatriated to UK Synovitis of Knee (accident)

As an aside listed on his record as 'A.S.C.(Tanks)'. His record is in the 'pension records' therefore there is only a brief summary of his service and he gives his unit as Depot B Company. The Tank Corps medal roll shows him as 8th Battalion This number block goes from 91457 to 91599 (with a handful of exceptions) so the 8th Battalion is looking more positive. The problem with the Rolls is there is no consistency as to their completion before submission, sometimes alphabetical, sometimes numeric etc etc.

91588 Aldridge  8th Battalion was transferred to the Tank Corps 27.12.1916 and was posted to the BEF 21 August 1917, a month after Lay.

The newspaper is dated April 1917.

It does however give us a rough timeline for Spr Humphrey, my interpretation:-

Called up and posted to ASC Grove Park November 1916

Medal Roll indicates ASCwas first unit served with in a theatre of war (with the caveat above)

Transferred to MGC (HB) December 1916 (which makes the BEF a bit problematic)

Posted to Tank Corps July/August 1917 in time for 3rd Ypres and Cambrai however it appears he was posted to Brigade Signals on the 27th August 1917 and transferred to the RE.

There is also the caveat of relying on single numbers,  you will need to 'bracket' him to confirm the above.

 

[Matlock1418]

5 hours ago, elfinblues said:

Charlie remarried in 1934 and did have two children with his second wife.

I would strongly concur with @PRC that you need to get your genealogy bedded down.

Please, not least: What was the forename(s) of his second wife?

M

[Matlock1418]

6 hours ago, John(txic) said:

He might be 51765 H C Humphrey, Royal Fusiliers; widow Daisy Alice, of 97 Elm Drive, Hove.  

This widow put in her pension claim in in 1937

Previously/after discharge 1.11.17 the soldier had claimed a disability pension when living at The Friar, West Chiltington

M

[PRC]

2 hours ago, elfinblues said:

PRC (Peter) - a similar question, really - One common denominator in a few of the entries you listed is the 8th Battalion. As in my last query, does the fact that men with service numbers close to that of my (likely) great-uncle make it likely, or just possible, that he was also in the 8th Tank Corps?

More possible than likely with the information available so far, but hopefully the tankies will be along shortly as one angle I think needs exploring is when did H Battalion, (subsequently renamed 8th Battalion I believe in July 1917), come into being. Does this bulk transfer of Drivers from the ASC perhaps reflect the creation of the Battalion - which in turn makes it likely that at least from the outset Charles served with the Battalion.

Working from The Landships narratives I don't see either Battalion title referenced until Third Ypres at the end of the summer 1917.  The high level record says the War Diary starts January 1917 but that needs checking out - it is possible one was kept while the unit was in the UK, or was started and then stopped until they landed in France. I have to admit I couldn't spot one for the start of that period. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4553265

War Diaries for units that fought in France & Flanders can currently be downloaded from the National Archive for free. You do need to sign in with your account, but if you don't have one, even that can be set up as part of placing your first order. Just click on "sign in" on any page of the online catalogue and follow the instructions - no financial details are requested.
Alternatively if you have subscription access to Ancestry they can also be seen there.

The diary stated to cover the period from August 1917 can be found in the online catalogue here - but there are other bits. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/a337d2d6104f4ef0a84dba0b91cab361
also https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/de808b099f1a46438f7eb269d34c5795
and https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/aac0f21fc20c43f9ae74a50b2a0b8359

And what I'd be keen to know if that when they transferred to the Royal Engineers was this just a rebadging exercise - did they otherwise continue to perform the same role and duties. From Third Ypres onward it seems likely that each Battalion had a Wireless Tank. https://sites.google.com/site/landships/home/general-tank-information/wireless-tanks?authuser=0

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww1-uk-wireless-communications-tank/

8th Battalion were part of 5th Brigade, Tank Corps. By June 1918 it looks like the Brigade had a Signal Company with it's own War Diary. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/4288b1fbc44e42c59fa9c48b9a4f5ea0

None of these War Diaries are likely to mention him by name, its more about understanding where they were and what they were up to.

Cheers,
Peter

[BillyH]

31 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

I would strongly concur with @PRC that you need to get your genealogy bedded down.

Please, not least: What was the forename(s) of his second wife?

Surely elfinblues did 'bed down' his genealogy in post #6 of this topic?

I believe his 2nd wife was Evelyn Emily (ex Ancestry family tree).

BillyH.

Edited 8 September by BillyH

[elfinblues]

Hello again everyone, and my apologies for being away for my radio silence over the past few hours - family duty called!

Huge thanks once again for providing me with so much food for thought. In all honesty, I think I need to re-read all of the above several times before I can follow up with more queries, should I have them (which is more than likely ...)

Just to clear up one point, though - yes, I do have my genealogy 'bedded down'. That's the angle that I'm coming at this from. And thank you BillyH - Evelyn Emily was indeed Charlie's 2nd wife. It was not Daisy Alice of Hove. 

Right - I have a lot of reading and digesting of info to do!

[kenf48]

If it helps the C.Humphrey from Waldron appears to have been a keen sportsman, especially cricket, but also involved in the reformation of the village football team. He was also a member of the Labour Party.

[delta]

11 hours ago, PRC said:

Forum member @delta has written about the first tank crews, so if Charles took part in that first battle he may be aware of him.

He joined the ASC too late to deploy for the tank actions in 1916.

Oddly he crossed to France before the first of the UK raised tank battalions also deployed in 1917.  He therefore ay have deployed as an indiviual augmentee. 

Stephen Pope