Where do I go with just a medal roll & index reference?

[elfinblues]

Hello, and thank you all once again for going so far above and beyond the call of duty to help me out. I appreciate it hugely.

I have just been reading, re-reading and re-re-reading all of the above, trying to digest and to boil it all down into something that I, as a layman, can understand and follow. If I have understood everything correctly, Charlie's basic timeline looks like this:

• June 1916: MGC (HB) is raised
• 6th November 1916, or very soon after: Charlie is conscripted, assigned to the ASC, and sent to Grove Park for assessment
• Late December 1916: Still in the UK, Charlie is transferred from the ASC to MGC (HB) – possibly, given the 91457-91599 number block, to the 8th Battalion, which was was part of the 5th Brigade (though this being correct depends on PRC's query about when 8th Battalion came into being, being answered)
• Between March & July 1917: MGC no. of 91530 is assigned to Charlie
• 29th July 1917: Tank Corps formed from the MGC (HB)
• July or August 1917: Left UK for France
• July or August 1917: Charlie is posted to the Tank Corps, in time for 3rd Ypres & Cambrai
• 27th August 1917: Along with a large number of men transferred and renumbered at the same time, Charlie is transferred to the Royal Engineers and posted to Brigade Signals (possibly the 2nd Tank Brigade signal company) (signalling was a responsibility of the RE). Charlie's 'trade' changes from 'gunner' to 'sapper'.

Firstly, could I ask if I have understood correctly? It is hard to follow some of the heavier militaryspeak, but it's important to me that I get this as close to correct as I can, so please feel free to shout if I have got anything wrong. Thank you.

In addition, I have a few questions that I'm hoping someone might be able to answer...

• How likely might it be that Charlie was conscripted rather than volunteered? I understand that 1916 was the year when conscription was extended to married men (which he was) ...
• What and where was/is Grove Park, and what might the 'assessments' have comprised? Medicals? Fitness? etc?
• The story in the family is that Charlie was at the Somme. I don't recall Ypres or Cambrai being mentioned - that's not to say he wasn't present at those battles, but could he have also seen action at the 2nd and/or 3rd Somme?
• Charlie appears to have been in the MGC(HB)/Tank Corps for a very short period of time after arriving in France. Was this normal? Am I understanding correctly?
• PRC, when you talk about wanting to know whether Charlie's role changed when he transferred to the RE, I don't quite follow... Are you saying that each battalion of the Engineers had tanks of their own? So they weren't limited to just the Tank Corps?

 Thanks very much again, everyone, and my apologies for taking a while to pick some of this up... It's not always easy...

[kenf48]

8 hours ago, elfinblues said:

• How likely might it be that Charlie was conscripted rather than volunteered? I understand that 1916 was the year when conscription was extended to married men (which he was) ...

The Military Service Act was passed in January 1916 and came into force on the 1st March 1916. The Act originally applied to single men aged 18 to 41. The Act was amended in May 1916 (Military Service (No2) Act which extended conscription to married men. See:-

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-1916-military-service-act/

and

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-1916-military-service-act/the-may-1916-extension-of-the-military-service-act/

The latter page has links for the procedure for call up to the military.

It is possible Humphrey attested under the Derby or Group Scheme in October - December 1915.  We don't know, but what we do know is only 'attested men' could seek exemption from military service at the Local Tribunal.  The married men were told they would not be called until all the single men had joined the Army, an impossible politician's 'promise'.  Given the assumed date of call up it does seem likely he had some form of exemption.  Perhaps after the harvest? 

8 hours ago, elfinblues said:

What and where was/is Grove Park, and what might the 'assessments' have comprised? Medicals? Fitness? etc?

Grove Park was the HQ and base for the Motor Transport section ASC (officially 'No 1 Reserve Depot MT'). Basically he would receive a notice and report to the local Depot, or recruiting office.  If he had attested under the Derby Scheme he would already have been in the ARMY Reserve 'B' so would have avoided some of the formalities.  He would have a medical on mobilisation and be assessed for active duty, James Chater for example was only considered fit for duty on lines of communication i.e. a 'Category' man.  It is likely Pte Humphrey was in a similar medical category but without a service record again, we do not know.  Considered suitable for the ASC he would be given a rail warrant and sent to Grove Park where his driving ability was assessed (Learner's Assessment). If suitable he would be retained there and trained on the Army vehicles and learn basic maintenance etc before being posted to an active service unit in a theatre of war, or remain at home.  The Medal Roll indicates he was initially posted to the Base Depot in France which would qualify him for the 'war medals'.  In any event he was later posted to the Tanks.

 

9 hours ago, elfinblues said:

The story in the family is that Charlie was at the Somme. I don't recall Ypres or Cambrai being mentioned - that's not to say he wasn't present at those battles, but could he have also seen action at the 2nd and/or 3rd Somme?

Ask a man in the street about the battles of the Great War and the answer will inevitably be 'the Somme' or occasionally 'Passiondale' (sic) not Third Ypres.  For those at home the Somme was synonymous to the BEF.  In fact I only said he was there for those battles whether or not he participated in them we don't know, he does seem to have been posted as a signaller shortly after his arrival in France. Nor do we know for certain what his role was in the tank.  Again without a service record we don't know which actions he participated in.  I don't disrespect family stories but it was over 100 years ago now, maybe he did drive a tank but he ended his service as a signaller in the Tank Corps.

 

9 hours ago, elfinblues said:

• Charlie appears to have been in the MGC(HB)/Tank Corps for a very short period of time after arriving in France. Was this normal? Am I understanding correctly?
• PRC, when you talk about wanting to know whether Charlie's role changed when he transferred to the RE, I don't quite follow... Are you saying that each battalion of the Engineers had tanks of their own? So they weren't limited to just the Tank Corps?

He remained with the Tank Corps throughout his time in France again you will see in the record I posted they were compulsorily transferred to the RE because at that time the RE was responsible for signals and communications.  He would have received training, in all likelihood at a Signal School in France (I see @Terry_Reeves is here and he can no doubt explain that relationship better than I can) he was then returned to his unit (in all probability 2nd Tank Brigade) as a signaller.

[PRC]

11 hours ago, delta said:

He joined the ASC too late to deploy for the tank actions in 1916.

Oddly he crossed to France before the first of the UK raised tank battalions also deployed in 1917.  He therefore ay have deployed as an indiviual augmentee. 

Stephen Pope

Thanks Stephen,

At the time I originally posted it wasn't clear when he might have joined the ASC, so apologies.

Are you able to shed any light on how and when "H" Battalion was formed - were there any mass drafts from other units such as the ASC for example?

Similarly with the subsequent reposting of these MGC (HB) men to the Royal Engineers to act as Signallers - was this a Tank Corps wide policy imposed in early 1917?

Cheers,
Peter

[Terry_Reeves]

Amongst the complement of the HQ of a Brigade Signal Company RE, Tank Corps  was a Driver ASC MT.

With regard to RE Signals - 310567 RE was at  Bedford  "A" Signal Depot before transferring the MGC 28.12.16. 

The problem is , is that we do not know with any certainty  if he is actually the right man.

TR

Edited 9 September by Terry_Reeves

[elfinblues]

On 08/09/2024 at 21:27, kenf48 said:

If it helps the C.Humphrey from Waldron appears to have been a keen sportsman, especially cricket, but also involved in the reformation of the village football team. He was also a member of the Labour Party.

Thank you, kenf48. May I ask where you found this - in a newspaper piece, perhaps?

[elfinblues]

Hello everyone,

My thanks, once again, to everyone for their continuing time and effort in helping a newbie to understand all this stuff.

I must admit that I am still struggling to grasp some of this. Please forgive me for asking yet more queries in the hope that someone will be able to help me follow...

• kenf48 - you noted how the medal roll indicates that the ASC was the first unit served with in a theatre of war, but if, as has been suggested, he was transferred to the MGC whilst in the UK, how could he have been with the ASC in a theatre of war? Again, I don't follow...
•  
• If Charlie was transferred from the ASC to MGC (HB) in December 1916, why would he not have received his MGC no of 91530 until between March and July?
•  
• kenf48 - In your comparison with 91521 Lay M2/196792, you seemed to suggest that Charlie left the UK for France in Jul/Aug 1917, but you found that the nearby service number of 310557 Marks was another gunner transferred to signals on 27th August 1917. You also say "Posted to Tank Corps July/August 1917 in time for 3rd Ypres and Cambrai however it appears he was posted to Brigade Signals on the 27th August 1917 and transferred to the RE." That's why I asked whether it was normal for men to be in the MGC for such short lengths of time, but you said "He remained with the Tank Corps throughout his time in France", which seemed to suggest a longer period. I'm slightly confused... was he really only in France for a few weeks in Jul/Aug or for longer?
•  
• "Along with a large number of men transferred and renumbered at the same time, Charlie was transferred from the MGC (poss 8th Bn, 5th Brigade) to the Royal Engineers and posted to Brigade Signals (possibly the 2nd Tank Brigade signal company)." So, the 2nd Tank Brigade Signal Company was a company of the Royal Engineers - not of the MGC (MT)/Tank Corps? Do I understand correctly? I am so confused by the transfer from the Tank Corps to the RE...
•  
• PRC asked, "When they transferred to the Royal Engineers, was this just a rebadging exercise? Did they otherwise continue to perform the same role and duties?" Would this have been likely? I ask because his role seems to have changed from gunner to sapper. 
•  
• PRC said, "8th Battalion were part of 5th Brigade, Tank Corps. By June 1918, it looks like the Brigade had a Signal Company with it's own War Diary." Is this what is meant above where it says that "Charlie was transferred from the MGC to the Royal Engineers and posted to Brigade Signals". In other words, he was transferred to the 8th Bn/5th Brigade to the Royal Engineers but then posted back to the 5th Brigade's signal company?
•  
• Re the question about which battles Charlie was at, if, as we seem to be saying, it is a possibility (rather than a likelihood) that he was in the 8th Battalion Tank Corps, would it not be possible to tell from the diaries at TNA which battles he saw, or did the men of that battalion not always see action at the same places?

I'm so sorry to ask so many questions and to be taking such time to get to grips with all this. My head hurts!

[kenf48]

 

9 hours ago, elfinblues said:

May I ask where you found this - in a newspaper piece, perhaps?

A C. Humphrey seems to have played an active part in village life in Waldron all his sporting prowess especially with the cricket team is recorded in the Sussex Express throughout the 1920s with one reference to him being a. member of the Independent Labour Party .  As has been previously noted it helps to build a picture of a man's life outside his military service which may help you to identify him with a greater degree of certainty.

If you do not have access to newspapers Sussex Record Office digitised local newspaper 14-18 as a Centennial Project or you could visit the Keep to see what records they may hold.

8 hours ago, elfinblues said:

you noted how the medal roll indicates that the ASC was the first unit served with in a theatre of war, but if, as has been suggested, he was transferred to the MGC whilst in the UK, how could he have been with the ASC in a theatre of war? Again, I don't follow...

I also stated there was inconsistency in the completion of the Rolls depending on the Regiment/Corps if you look at the Roll you will see explicit instructions in the heading as to their completion

We are relying on the actions of a clerk over 100+ years ago who was completing the Rolls for the administrative purpose of issuing over 6 million medals, not for family research.  They are a valuable tool but need to be treated with caution. That said it does appear the RE Rolls were compiled correctly and in accordance with the man's service record.  A slip that accompanied the medals stated:-

'To avoid unnecessary correspondence, kindly note that the Regtl. particulars inscribed on the British War & Victory Medals are those held on first disembarkation in a theatre of war. The rank is the highest attained, PROVIDED IT WAS HELD IN A THEATRE OF WAR OR OVERSEAS PRIOR TO 11.11.18. Appointments such as L/Sgts., L/Cpl/, etc. are not inscribed on Medals, SPECIAL NOTE TO THOSE WHO SERVED IN RIFLE REGTS. 'Rifleman" is not inscribed on War Medals, "Pte." being the correct designation of this rank.'

The rolls often give an indication of medals returned for one reason or another if they were not received by the recipient or they were unhappy with the engraving.  There is no suggestion this was the case with Spr Humphrey whose medals were named to the ASC; 'In sequence' named to first unit issued by the last.

We know Pte Chater was tested at Grove Park on the 6th November 1916, as his number was one digit away from Humphrey we can reasonably assume they tested on or around that date and that is when the ASC number was allocated.  You may wish to attempt to further cross reference this.  Pte Chater's record shows that on arrival at the Base Depot he was posted to 'Spares' rather than an active service Company.  Without a service record we don't know what happened to Pte Humphrey but for arguments sake if he too was unassigned in the BEF he would be a prime candidate for transfer.  You should look for other men on the Rolls  whose military career apparently followed his  this involves time, research spreadsheets etc.  I and colleagues are simply making suggestions.  Alternatively you can pay a researcher to do this work for you and they will provide you with a very detailed outline of service derived from many sources. I believe Chris is able to undertake some work

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/about/

8 hours ago, elfinblues said:

In your comparison with 91521 Lay M2/196792, you seemed to suggest that Charlie left the UK for France in Jul/Aug 1917, but you found that the nearby service number of 310557 Marks was another gunner transferred to signals on 27th August 1917. You also say "Posted to Tank Corps July/August 1917 in time for 3rd Ypres and Cambrai however it appears he was posted to Brigade Signals on the 27th August 1917 and transferred to the RE." That's why I asked whether it was normal for men to be in the MGC for such short lengths of time, but you said "He remained with the Tank Corps throughout his time in France", which seemed to suggest a longer period. I'm slightly confused... was he really only in France for a few weeks in Jul/Aug or for longer?

I am at pains to say this is my interpretation of hi record based on researching soldiers of the war on this forum and elsewhere for many years.  I am quite happy for my  hypothesis to be tested, that is the purpose of our collaboration as evidenced by the participation of others on this thread..  As noted above I found Spr Marks record from the RE Roll, you can and should look for others.  I did not suggest Spr Humphrey was in the same draft as Pte Lay but on the balance of probability it seems they were both transferred from the Base (whether in France or the UK we don't know) to the Tank Corps around the same time based on the MGC (HB) numbering.  They were numbered to the the MGC (HB) which was essentially code for the Tanks. They retained the same number in the Tank Corps when it was formally badged as such so Mark's record may simply express that reality and we can associate it with that of Humphrey, or not.

 I also noted in one record there was a designation 'ASC Tanks' scrawled above the soldiers' AF 103B. Perhaps @delta can assist here but were men still badged to the ASC sent to France in a group from the ASC designated  'ASC Tanks'.  I had not hear do f rhis before which is why I mentioned it.  I do know many ASC men were transferred to tanks for their mechanical skills, as were machine gunners etc..

It is uncertain when your man went to France but we know from the newspaper article which was dated April 1917 he was no longer an ASC 'private' but a MGC/Tank 'Gnr'.

This thread and in particular the answer from @Ron Clifton

 although discussing a man in the RFA may help you to understand how Signals were organised in this period of the Great War

One of the Tank Corps records cited as an exemplar I can't recall which, showed the man had trained as a switchboard operator and was deployed at Tank Brigade Headquarters.  A vital communications role in a tank battle but not necessarily firing guns or driving a tank towards the enemy.  Equally signallers were deployed at the cutting edge of battle laying wireless cables for example, there are many accounts of men awarded gallantry medals for completing this task under heavy fire.  We don't know what battles Spr Humphrey fought in.

 

8 hours ago, elfinblues said:

Along with a large number of men transferred and renumbered at the same time, Charlie was transferred from the MGC (poss 8th Bn, 5th Brigade) to the Royal Engineers and posted to Brigade Signals (possibly the 2nd Tank Brigade signal company)." So, the 2nd Tank Brigade Signal Company was a company of the Royal Engineers - not of the MGC (MT)/Tank Corps? Do I understand correctly? I am so confused by the transfer from the Tank Corps to the RE...

As the above link identifies the Royal Engineers trained and deployed signallers, without a service record we don't know what Pte Humphrey trained as within the RE.   We do know the formation of the Tank Corps was veiled in secrecy prior to their deployment which means men might still be shown as ASC MGC etc etc, and presumably signallers rebadged as Royal Engineers, that secrecy is a challenge for researchers.

By necessity as there were no 'Gunners' amongst RE private soldier deployed as 'sapper' which showed they had a skill within the RE.  In the single record I cited from the RE Roll, i.e. Spr Marks it is not clear from his record where the signal training took place (although as noted above the main RE Signal School was in Bedford) but there were always schools behind the lines in the BEF as the RFA record in the link above shows.

Without a service record we can never be certain only make assumptions on the balance of probability unless we can find some other cross reference, which is usually easier if the soldier died.

 At best we are giving pointers for further research, this can be time consuming, painstaking more spreadsheets and looking for patterns once you are certain the man identified from the village of Waldron is the person who served as shown on the Medal Roll, which brings us back to your original question.  If that is all you have near number sampling, pension records village records local newspapers are all useful sources as indeed is the GWF and the Long Long Trail on how to research a soldier.  A researcher needs to read and understand the structure of the Army in the Great War apart from books there are many online sources.  You could approach the Royal Engineers museum at Chatham or the Tank Museum at Bovington I'm sure they don't just have the ' big toys ' but will have information on signalling in the Tank Corps. Communication was vital in the course of any battle.

I hope this has gone some way to answering your questions 

[BillyH]

What an excellent, and lengthy, reply Ken!

BillyH.

Edited 10 September by BillyH

[elfinblues]

Thank you, especially to @kenf48. This does indeed help greatly. I am most appreciative of all the time and effort that you have so kindly put into educating me and answering my many queries. Thank you.