Pictures. 8551 Pte Edward Clannachan. 1st Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers.

[lfergie1506]

6 minutes ago, WilliamRev said:

I have been looking through the the British Newspaper Archive for mentions of Edward Clannachan (and in particular a photo), but so far all I have come across is this article from the Barrhead News of Friday26 June 1903, which shows him being sentenced to 21 days hard labour for breaking into an old woman's house with three pals, and stealing a pair of boots and a bird cage. (I'll keep on searching for that photo - with such a distinctive surname the search is not too hard).

William

Hi William, yes I found that record too from 1903.    It looks like he got himself in trouble at around age 16, must have seen the errors of his ways and then 2 years later enlisted himself.    His old brother died the year before in the Anglo Boer war in 1902, maybe he went off rails for a bit.    I have contacted someone that deals with prison records on the off chance there is a prison photo.    Its worth a shot!

[WilliamRev]

13 minutes ago, lfergie1506 said:

Hi William, yes I found that record too from 1903.    It looks like he got himself in trouble at around age 16, must have seen the errors of his ways and then 2 years later enlisted himself.    His old brother died the year before in the Anglo Boer war in 1902, maybe he went off rails for a bit.    I have contacted someone that deals with prison records on the off chance there is a prison photo.    Its worth a shot!

I have finished searching the BNA: his death is announced in the 7 Dec 1914 editions of the Dublin Daily Express, the Western Mail and the Sheffield Daily Telegraph (the latter notes that his death is on 'List 13, released to press on 4 Nov). But alas there is no photo of him. However, there must be other local newspapers that have not yet been digitised in archives that you can perhaps visit. . 

William

[lfergie1506]

1 minute ago, WilliamRev said:

I have finished searching the BNA: his death is announced in the 7 Dec 1914 editions of the Dublin Daily Express, the Western Mail and the Sheffield Daily Telegraph (the latter notes that his death is on 'List 13, released to press on 4 Nov). But alas there is no photo of him. However, there must be other local newspapers that have not yet been digitised in archives that you can perhaps visit. . 

William

Fabulous info William, I will go on and take month's membership to check this out.    Yeah I think you may be right a trip to library where all the old newspapers are kept maybe the way to go here.   Thanks for taking the time to search this for me, it is very much appreciated.

[BillyH]

lfergie1506,

You need to take a good look at a topic from 10 years ago (link below), you should send a message via the GWF to member "Neilston" who may be able to help you find a photo (long shot though).

Help find our village connection for Soldiers - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org)

I have tagged him here @neilston and it may attract his attention, although he hasn't visited the GWF for about a year now. Reading the whole topic should sort your evening out nicely, nothing much on TV 

BillyH.

[WilliamRev]

Another thought (this is all very welcome displacement activity from doing vital PhD stuff): Frogsmile mentioned above the regimental museum in Glasgow, details of which are HERE. A dozen years ago I e-mailed them seeking info on my grandfather (who was also in 1st RSF)- they were unable to answer enquiries about a specific man, but were happy for me to make an appointment to visit in person to look through the archives. For the First World War these consist of a dozen or so leather-bound scrap books of newspaper cuttings. Ist battalion RSF has a single thick volume devoted to the entire war, and whilst I don't think that it is in any way comprehensive I suppose that there is a slight possibility that a photo of him from a newspaper has made its way in there (but don't build your hopes up).

William 

[lfergie1506]

17 minutes ago, BillyH said:

lfergie1506,

You need to take a good look at a topic from 10 years ago (link below), you should send a message via the GWF to member "Neilston" who may be able to help you find a photo (long shot though).

Help find our village connection for Soldiers - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org)

I have tagged him here @neilston and it may attract his attention, although he hasn't visited the GWF for about a year now. Reading the whole topic should sort your evening out nicely, nothing much on TV 

BillyH.

Hi Billy, yes I have been in contact with Matt previously, he does phenomenal work on the veterans, he too doesn't have a picture of either Edward or John, I will keep trying.    I have contacted  the museum today in Glasgow, they are going to go through the old pictures, everything crossed something turns up!

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, lfergie1506 said:

Hi Billy, yes I have been in contact with Matt previously, he does phenomenal work on the veterans, he too doesn't have a picture of either Edward or John, I will keep trying.    I have contacted  the museum today in Glasgow, they are going to go through the old pictures, everything crossed something turns up!

If it’s not impossible for you to go I would recommend that you arrange to go and look yourself as well if you can at some point.  You will learn from it and in all truthfulness you will be more directly (personally) motivated than even the best of the volunteers at the museum.  It requires a certain mindset and dedication to look through reams of photographs.

Edited 11 September by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

3 hours ago, BillyH said:

His Soldier's Effects record shows that he had originally enlisted at Neilston on 1st Feb.1905

So definately the same day and location as Hugh Clannachan (8552).

@lfergie1506 - is Hugh a brother? I'm not readily picking him up on the census record for the family.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[neilston]

1 hour ago, BillyH said:

lfergie1506,

You need to take a good look at a topic from 10 years ago (link below), you should send a message via the GWF to member "Neilston" who may be able to help you find a photo (long shot though).

Help find our village connection for Soldiers - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org)

I have tagged him here @neilston and it may attract his attention, although he hasn't visited the GWF for about a year now. Reading the whole topic should sort your evening out nicely, nothing much on TV 

BillyH.

Hi Folks. I have been lucky to find many photos of our lads from Neilston but alas i have been unable to get any photos of the Clannachan lads yet.

 

Cheers Matt 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, lfergie1506 said:

  I have contacted someone that deals with prison records on the off chance there is a prison photo.    Its worth a shot!

There was definitely a late Victorian period (a kind of enlightenment when prisons and insane asylums both received a more humane consideration) when photos were routinely taken of those convicted.  My understanding is that with a later change of government this was considered an unnecessary expense (sound familiar?) and discontinued as a cost saving.

Edited 11 September by FROGSMILE

[lfergie1506]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

There was definitely a late Victorian period (a kind of enlightenment when prisons and insane asylums both received a more humane consideration) when photos were routinely taken of those convicted.  My understanding is that with a later change of government this was considered an unnecessary expense (sound familiar?) and discontinued as a cost saving.

yes it certainly does sound familiar ***

[lfergie1506]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

So definately the same day and location as Hugh Clannachan (8552).

@lfergie1506 - is Hugh a brother? I'm not readily picking him up on the census record for the family.

Cheers,
Peter

 

Hi Peter, no possible distant relative.

1 hour ago, neilston said:

Hi Folks. I have been lucky to find many photos of our lads from Neilston but alas i have been unable to get any photos of the Clannachan lads yet.

 

Cheers Matt 

@neilstonThanks Matt, I will keep searching and if ever lucky enough to find any pictures, I will send over to you.

[lfergie1506]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

If it’s not impossible for you to go I would recommend that you arrange to go and look yourself as well if you can at some point.  You will learn from it and in all truthfulness you will be more directly (personally) motivated than even the best of the volunteers at the museum.  It requires a certain mindset and dedication to look through reams of photographs.

I spoke to them today and the photos are not available for me to view, however I spoke to the Manager and she said she was going to search through.   I agree need to be determine to keep searching and I guess that is why I am here. I have been searching for quite a bit of time and will explore every avenue possible.    Next stop will be through the newspaper archives in library to see what this brings!

[lfergie1506]

9 hours ago, 6RRF said:

I wish you every luck in contacting the RSF museum, but would offer two warnings. First, for the reasons Frogsmile has set out, individual photies are hard to find unless officers or other prominent "appointments" such as pipe majors. That's true of all regiments of course, but unfortunately the RSF museum suffered a very bad fire about 30 years ago and lost a lot of their stuff at the time. I've no doubt that they've been working hard to build it up since, but...

Good luck anyway

Thanks Stuart, I have everything crossed something turns up but do realise chancer are quite remote.

[BillyH]

17 hours ago, PRC said:

So definitely the same day and location as Hugh Clannachan (8552).

@lfergie1506 - is Hugh a brother? I'm not readily picking him up on the census record for the family.

Cheers,
Peter

I couldn't help getting drawn into who Hugh Clannachan really was, so I have spent an hour or so looking into it and come up with the following conclusions.

He was Hugh Peter Ward Clannachan, born out of wedlock at Neilston to Sarah Ward on 26.1.1886.   In 1891 John Clannachan was declared to be Hugh's father.  John Clannachan was the younger brother of Edward Clannachan ('our' Edward Clannachan's father). So Edward and Hugh were cousins.

BillyH.

edit : Hugh appears on the 1891 census at Neilston as Hugh Ward.

Edited 12 September by BillyH

[PRC]

22 hours ago, lfergie1506 said:

I found that record too from 1903.    It looks like he got himself in trouble at around age 16, must have seen the errors of his ways and then 2 years later enlisted himself. 

In theory the imprisonment should have stopped him from being able to serve - although whether a recruiting sergeant was aware and turned a blind eye we shall never know.

Here's the first page of the attestation of cousin Hugh Clannachan - as you can see question 8 asks if the recruit has "ever been sentenced to Imprisonment by the civil power", to which Edward presumably answered "No". That was a risk - a mis-statement on the enlistment forms could have seen him back in prison.

Note also the manual change to the split between time in the Colours and time in the Reserves. The recruiting offices were obviously using up old stocks of the form.

Image courtesy Genes Reunited.

Cheers,
Peter

[lfergie1506]

9 minutes ago, PRC said:

In theory the imprisonment should have stopped him from being able to serve - although whether a recruiting sergeant was aware and turned a blind eye we shall never know.

Here's the first page of the attestation of cousin Hugh Clannachan - as you can see question 8 asks if the recruit has "ever been sentenced to Imprisonment by the civil power", to which Edward presumably answered "No". That was a risk - a mis-statement on the enlistment forms could have seen him back in prison.

Note also the manual change to the split between time in the Colours and time in the Reserves. The recruiting offices were obviously using up old stocks of the form.

Image courtesy Genes Reunited.

Cheers,
Peter

Thanks Peter, maybe glad the officer possibly did turn a blind eye, he had lost his older brother the year before in the Anglo Boer War and maybe had a tough time, whilst I would never in a million years condone stealing it wasn't a major crime and his sentence of 21 hard days labour reflected that.   What he has given to his country in his short life I am sure could be forgiven.

[lfergie1506]

5 hours ago, BillyH said:

I couldn't help getting drawn into who Hugh Clannachan really was, so I have spent an hour or so looking into it and come up with the following conclusions.

He was Hugh Peter Ward Clannachan, born out of wedlock at Neilston to Sarah Ward on 26.1.1886.   In 1891 John Clannachan was declared to be Hugh's father.  John Clannachan was the younger brother of Edward Clannachan ('our' Edward Clannachan's father). So Edward and Hugh were cousins.

BillyH.

edit : Hugh appears on the 1891 census at Neilston as Hugh Ward.

Hi Billy, I did read about that, I must research him further to see where his family ended up.   Yes you are quite correct John Clannachan was Edward's brother (our Edward's dad)   Edward's dad (also Edward) was killed in accident, just as they were about to immigrate to Canada and I am mean literally, he was heading to his place of work to hand in his papers.   He died the same year as Edward's other brother James.    All very sad.   

[Tom Lang]

I'm attaching my transcription of the War Diary of the 1st Bn Royal Scots Fusiliers for the month of October 1914.  I have excluded the original TNA pages (courtesy TNA) for brevity.

Tom.

[lfergie1506]

@Tom Lang thank you for sending me this, it is as equally fascinating and sad at same time, it allows you to somehow build a picture of what was happening on this day, I will save this info and pass to family.   I am so interesting in all this however researching anything military is completely new to me so all the help in this group has been greatly welcomed in building the info.   I would have never know where to find this info so again greatly appreciated!

[Tom Lang]

9 minutes ago, lfergie1506 said:

@Tom Lang thank you for sending me this, it is as equally fascinating and sad at same time, it allows you to somehow build a picture of what was happening on this day, I will save this info and pass to family.   I am so interesting in all this however researching anything military is completely new to me so all the help in this group has been greatly welcomed in building the info.   I would have never know where to find this info so again greatly appreciated!

Thank you for your reply. It is the least I can do to provide that 'picture'. The TNA originals are (most of the time) difficult to read, due to the exigencies of war, bad hand-writing and the available time & materials to maintain a Battalion War Diary. I also know that other GWF members like a good 'read' too - failing eyesight is a continuing reality.

Tom.

[lfergie1506]

5 hours ago, lfergie1506 said:

Thanks Peter, maybe glad the officer possibly did turn a blind eye, he had lost his older brother the year before in the Anglo Boer War and maybe had a tough time, whilst I would never in a million years condone stealing it wasn't a major crime and his sentence of 21 hard days labour reflected that.   What he has given to his country in his short life I am sure could be forgiven.

I am wondering if they same record for Edward would be available somewhere to view?

[PRC]

5 hours ago, lfergie1506 said:

whilst I would never in a million years condone stealing it wasn't a major crime and his sentence of 21 hard days labour reflected that. 

Looks like two crimes according to that report, relatively close together, and while it doesn't specifically state Edward was involved in both the fact that he got a short sharp shock jail sentence probably indicates he was, even if it was a first court appearance.

So my take would be that either he lied on the enlistment form or the newspaper report doesn't relate to your Edward.

Even then the Army and the politicians would have been aware of the bad optics of filling the armed forces with convicted criminals. Post enlistment a subsequent conviction by the civil powers that involved a prison sentence would lead inevitably to a dishonourable discharge because of that.

As for the attestation form for Hugh, the equivalent for Edward would have been in the service record for him that was in the warehouse that was bombed out in the Blitz. Hughs' survived because he was discharged before 1914 - records for those soldiers were stored elsewhere.

I can't completely rule out something of Edwards' record surviving - while the teams trying to put together fragments did a reasonably good job it's not uncommon to come across bits that clearly belong to someone else. But that really is at best a needle in a haystack. There may well be boxes somewhere of pieces that lack any details that could identify whose record they were part of.

The papers recovered from the bombed out warehouse are referred to as the "burnt records" because there are also "unburnt records". An attempt was made to recreate as many service records as possible by scouring files held by the Ministry of Pensions and the Pension Medical Service records looking for extracts that had been taken from service records. But those apply to soldiers who survived the conflict, (although not necessarily for very long), and so not a scenario that applied to Edward. Dependants pensions didn't usually require copies of service records to be kept by the Ministry of Pensions.

Cheers,
Peter

[lfergie1506]

@prc I don't think there was another Edward, more than likely him, perhaps when he enlisted they knew the history of his brother, the fact he was only 16 and part of a group.....who knows,  the strange thing was when I accessed the prison records, one of the group was listed serving his time but not Edward. I am wondering could there have been an appeal or something and that why he was able to join, who knows, he comes from a very small village, I am thinking they could not have lied and got away with it.   I have a chap on another site working on that.    For me it's not a major focus as no matter if he lied or if it was indeed overseen, he enlisted and the story goes from there.

I have just managed to see a picture of Hugh on the Ancestry tree which was interesting.      

[lfergie1506]

2 hours ago, Tom Lang said:

Thank you for your reply. It is the least I can do to provide that 'picture'. The TNA originals are (most of the time) difficult to read, due to the exigencies of war, bad hand-writing and the available time & materials to maintain a Battalion War Diary. I also know that other GWF members like a good 'read' too - failing eyesight is a continuing reality.

Tom.

@Tom Lang yep reading glasses for me now also ***.....is that when you know you are starting to get old!