mbriscoe Posted 11 September Share Posted 11 September Trying to make sense of some of the names on the War Memorial in New Kilpatrick Church, Bearsden The first, COULL, is shown as RSF on CWGC though a different battalion shown though that is not unusual but no mention of HMS IVERNIA? Third entry, WADDELL, what is BAC? Fourth entry LYLE - presume 17th Battalion Royal Scots and a POW in hospital but what is CERM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 11 September Share Posted 11 September The SS Ivernia was a converted Cunard passenger liner acting as a troopship on the Mediterranean Lines of Communication. On 1 January 1917, the Ivernia was carrying some 2,400 British troops from Marseilles to Alexandria, when at 10:12 am she was torpedoed by the German submarine UB-47 58 miles south-east of Cape Matapan in Greece. The ship went down fairly quickly with a loss of 36 crew members and 84 troops. 80 of the dead are commemorated on a Memorial at Mikra British Cemetery in the outskirts of Thessaloniki (Salonika), Greece. From the CWGC ... Quote Within the cemetery will be found the MIKRA MEMORIAL, commemorating almost 500 nurses, officers and men of the Commonwealth forces who died when troop transports and hospital ships were lost in the Mediterranean, and who have no grave but the sea. They are commemorated here because others who went down in the same vessels were washed ashore and identified, and are now buried at Thessaloniki. The ships were: HT "Marquette", torpedoed and sunk by 'U35' on 23 October 1915, 57.5 kilometres south from Salonika Bay, carrying the 29th Division Ammunition Column and the New Zealand Stationary Hospital. HT "Ivernia", torpedoed and sunk on 1 January 1917, 93 kilometres from Cape Matapan, carrying reinforcements for Egypt. HT "Arcadian" was torpedoed and sunk on 15 April 1917, 41.5 kilometres north east from the island of Milo (Melos), carrying reinforcements for Egypt. Hospital Ship "Britannic", of the White Star Line, sunk by mine on 21 November 1916 in the Zea Channel between Greece and the Cyclades, on her way from Naples to Mudos. Fleet Messenger "Princess Alberta", sunk by mine between Stavros and Mudros on 21 February 1917. Coull was one of those drowned. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 11 September Share Posted 11 September LYLE appears to have died in enemy hands as a POW. Could CERM therefore actually be GERM? - i.e. the entry reads A. LYLE. 16TH R.S. GERM HOSP. PRIS. WAR - expanding to A. LYLE, 16th Royal Scots, German Hospital, Prisoner of War, 11 Mar 1917. Lyle appears to have been interred at DENAIN COMMUNAL CEMETERY, of which CWGC has ... Quote Denain was a German hospital centre during the greater part of the War; and from the 1st November, 1918, to the 12th March, 1919, the 33rd Casualty Clearing Station was posted in the town. The Communal Cemetery, was used by the Germans to bury their soldiers and (in 1917 and 1918) 153 British prisoners. A British plot was made at the South-East end, after the capture of the town; and after the Armistice the graves of the prisoners and other British graves were regrouped beside it. CWGC has Lyle's date of death as 11 Apr 1918, rather than the 11 Mar 1917 on the Bearsden memorial, but either way, the cemetery was still in German hands on both dates. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbriscoe Posted 12 September Author Share Posted 12 September 7 hours ago, MBrockway said: The SS Ivernia was a converted Cunard passenger liner acting as a troopship on the Mediterranean Lines of Communication. On 1 January 1917, the Ivernia was carrying some 2,400 British troops from Marseilles to Alexandria, when at 10:12 am she was torpedoed by the German submarine UB-47 58 miles south-east of Cape Matapan in Greece. The ship went down fairly quickly with a loss of 36 crew members and 84 troops. 80 of the dead are commemorated on a Memorial at Mikra British Cemetery in the outskirts of Thessaloniki (Salonika), Greece. From the CWGC ... Coull was one of those drowned. Mark Thanks, that explains it. I will add a note to the WMR. 6 hours ago, MBrockway said: LYLE appears to have died in enemy hands as a POW. Could CERM therefore actually be GERM? - i.e. the entry reads A. LYLE. 16TH R.S. GERM HOSP. PRIS. WAR - expanding to A. LYLE, 16th Royal Scots, German Hospital, Prisoner of War, 11 Mar 1917. Lyle appears to have been interred at DENAIN COMMUNAL CEMETERY, of which CWGC has ... CWGC has Lyle's date of death as 11 Apr 1918, rather than the 11 Mar 1917 on the Bearsden memorial, but either way, the cemetery was still in German hands on both dates. Mark There are some odd abbreviations on the memorial and not uncommon for memorials to have wrong date, rank etc! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travers61 Posted 13 September Share Posted 13 September (edited) I had trouble finding Petty Officer D.T. Waddell on the CWGC website, but looking at the other info on the memorial & its location I now believe he is this man shown in the Royal Navy & Royal Marines War Graves Roll as: Name David Twaddle Rank. PO Mech Birth Date. 24 Feb 1888 Birth Place. New kilpatrick, NB Branch of Service. Royal Naval Air Station or Service Cause of Death. Died from disease Official Number Port Division F.10153 Death Date. 4 Mar 1917 Ship or Unit. Royal Naval Armoured Car Division Russia Location of Grave. Not recorded Name and Address of Cemetery Tiraspol, South Russia Relatives Notified and Address. Widow: Chrissie, C/O Stewart, 38 Kenmure Street, Pollokshields, Glasgow CWGC entry says he died at Tiraspol. His entry in ADM10 Service Registers & Registers of Death adds that his death was from Peritonitis, & his unit was HMS President II Russian Armoured Cars. So looks like BAC on the memorial should have been RAC for Russian Armoured Cars. Travers Edited 13 September by travers61 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 13 September Share Posted 13 September 5 hours ago, travers61 said: So looks like BAC on the memorial should have been RAC for Russian Armoured Cars. Travers I like trying to work out the unusual abbreviations which appear on war memorials and rolls of honour. In this case couldn't it be B[ritish] A[armoured] C[ars], Russia? RM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travers61 Posted 13 September Share Posted 13 September 2 hours ago, rolt968 said: I like trying to work out the unusual abbreviations which appear on war memorials and rolls of honour. In this case couldn't it be B[ritish] A[armoured] C[ars], Russia? RM Yes, thats a really great option. There are two versions on the CWGC Concentration report for the three PO Mech. buried at Tiraspol, Russian Armoured Cars & Armoured Cars Russia & on his main CWGC page its RNAS Armoured Car Division (Russia). Travers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 14 September Share Posted 14 September "Birth Place. New Kilpatrick, NB " NB meaning North Britain, i.e. Scotland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 14 September Share Posted 14 September That's undoubtedly our man - great job Travers Here's details of a red herring I spent some time investigating. Posted to avoid anyone else wasting time! David WADDELL Petty Officer, RNVR CLYDE C.Z/2691 1915-1919 Hood Bn., Royal Naval Division, Gallipoli and Western Front Promoted PO 16 Jan 1918 1914-15 Star, Victory & British War medals RNVR coming from Clyde Division drew me in, but he survived the war and I eventually placed his home address as Dundee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 14 September Share Posted 14 September Good comprehensive topic, including refs for the key sources, here on the forum ... Royal Naval Armoured Car Division Russia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 14 September Share Posted 14 September Details of Twaddle's service are likely to be in ADM 116/1717 Record of Service Ratings with Russian Armoured Cars Here's the TNA Catalogue entry: ADM 116/1717 Unfortunately it has not been digitized, so either a visit to Kew required, or a request to any GWF Pal who already has a hard copy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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