James Robert Lonsdale S/11828 Seaforth Highlanders enlisted 1912

[Kenneth Angus]

Can anybody help me. I'm looking for information on my Grandfather James Robert Lonsdale who joined the Seaforth Highlanders in 1912 

James R Lonsdale S/11828 I would love to find out if he was part of the original British Expeditionary Force sent to France in August 1914.

He later transferred with other men from the Seaforth Highlanders on 11th November 1915, to Royal Engineers does anybody know why.

 

I have zero service records on my Grandfather and would love to know where he fought. he also never collected any of his medals and since a lot of records were destroyed how would I be able to verify his presence in the campaigns 

 

[DavidOwen]

Welcome to the Forum

Your post has been edited to remove your email address as being a publicly visible forum it is not a good idea to post such information. The Forum has a private message system that you can use if necessary to send such information to other members.

Good luck with your research.

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, Kenneth Angus said:

11th November 1915

Are you sure of that date?

Eg

Brown 130527 was given that RE number when  transferred from 10th Seaforths 16/3/16. That was also the date Brown embarked for France.

Tyndale 130536 was transferred from RScots 20/3/16 and allocated that number.

Edited Tuesday at 12:07 by charlie962
Correction Brown svc no

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Kenneth Angus said:

Can anybody help me. I'm looking for information on my Grandfather James Robert Lonsdale who joined the Seaforth Highlanders in 1912 

James R Lonsdale S/11828 I would love to find out if he was part of the original British Expeditionary Force sent to France in August 1914.

He later transferred with other men from the Seaforth Highlanders on 11th November 1915, to Royal Engineers does anybody know why.

Hi @Kenneth Angus and welcome to the forum

Like many Great War era other ranks his service records appear to have gone up in flames, so would be interested to know where those dates come from.

In part that stems from that Seaforth Highlanders regimental service number - Army Service numbers that meant that one number stayed with a soldier for the whole of his career didn't come in until 1920.

Within a pre-war Regiment each type of unit (Regular, Special Reserve, Territorial Force) had their own number ranges, and sometimes even within them individual Battalions had their own ranges.

Thanks to Paul Nixon's Army Service number website we can see that S/11828 was not issued by the Regular Army Battalions in 1912. https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/09/seaforth-highlanders-1st-2nd-battalions.html
The Medal Index card for him that I could find shows him only qualifying for the Victory Medal and British War Medal - a combination that means he did not serve in a Theatre of War until at least the 1st January 1916 at the very earliest. So if he was a mobilied Special Reservist that would most likely indicate a health issue deeming him unfit for campaigning.
As a very simple check I took a look at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website for men of the Seaforth Highlanders for men with service numbers in the range S/11800 - to S/11899 and the earliest deaths I'm seeing are in July 1916 with a mix of Battalions - 1st, 8th and 9th.

That doesn't really sound like a pre-war recruit - so back to the source for that date.

Cheers,
Peter

[charlie962]

These RE numbers are perhaps related to RE Special Brigades (ie gas).

There is a particular thread on this subject

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/547-royal-engineers-special-brigade/#comment-3062

Edited Tuesday at 12:13 by charlie962

[RussT]

An S/ prefixed number relates to a war raised enlistment into a Highland Regiment, so that tells you immediately the vintage.

Russ

[Kenneth Angus]

22 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Are you sure of that date?

Eg

Brown 130527 was given that RE number when  transferred from 10th Seaforths 16/3/16. That was also the date Brown embarked for France.

Tyndale 130536 was transferred from RScots 20/3/16 and allocated that number.

100% positive, at least I have the original booklet on that. 
I just want confirmation he was in the 2nd Division because I’m almost certain he was based at Shorncliffe at the start of the war which is correct until departure and arrival in France on the 23rd August 

[Kenneth Angus]

Just now, Kenneth Angus said:

100% positive, at least I have the original booklet on that. 
I just want confirmation he was in the 2nd Division because I’m almost certain he was based at Shorncliffe at the start of the war which is correct until departure and arrival in France on the 23rd August 

So my Grandfather was with the Seaforth Highlanders in France

1. Battle of Cateau

2. Battle of Marne

3. Battle of Aisne

4. Battle of Messinines

5. 2nd Battle of Yres

moved to Royal Engineers 23rd Division in November 1915 seen action 

6. Battle of the Somme, also in the French sector Battle of Albert, Battle of Pozieres, Battle of Flers-Courcelette, The Battle of Morval, Battle of Transloy 

7. Vimy Ridge

8. Battle of Messines (2nd time)

9. Battle of Polygon Wood

10. 1st Battle of Passchendaele

11. 2nd Battle of Passchendaele

moved to Italy with unit (confirmed)

12. Battle of Vittorio Vereto 

And he never collected his medals and never spoke about the war.

my biggest intrigue is he talked about a Russian General and I wonder if he was used in Russia straight after the war 

 

[RussT]

So here is somebody in an opening post who clearly states he knows nothing about his GF's service suddenly telling us he knows everything about his Service.

Tread carefully is my advice.

[PRC]

15 minutes ago, Kenneth Angus said:

100% positive, at least I have the original booklet on that. 

Kenneth please help us to help you - which booklet is this?

3 minutes ago, Kenneth Angus said:

And he never collected his medals and never spoke about the war.

Other ranks medals were automatically sent out to the last known address - and so there would be a Medal Index Card for them. That applies even if the medals were returned as undeliverable, or were held because there was no known address. The most likely circumstance where medals weren't sent out is if a man had lost his entitlement as a result of desertion. Even then a Medal Index Card was raised - they were there to help the clerks at the records office do their job not assist researchers over a century later.

But we are talking millions of individuals, and sadly it is known that a batch of Medal Index Cards were stolen from the National Archive so there are scenarios where your grandfathers army career followed the path stated without it necessarily being backed up currently by the normal sources of documentation.

Cheers,
Peter

[Kenneth Angus]

Thank you Peter for the clarification 

it’s a little frustrating when the scant information we had is definitely corroborated with the history of the movement of the units. But much more annoying when there is very little recognition of campaigns fought 

I’ve never seen someone who had been in so many Battles and actually survived and yet a medal card that is woefully empty apart from an ink cross with 3 dots, whatever that signifies.

but that is only the Royal Engineers and not the Seaforth Highlanders ….. not a stitch on that

[DavidOwen]

This I think is his MIC? Courtesy Ancestry

 

The absence of a date means he didn't disembark into a theatre of war before 1st January 1916.

The cross with the dots signifies which unit his medals were issued under.

[DavidOwen]

He did not serve abroad with the Seaforth Highlanders as shown by the medal roll courtesy Ancestry.

10th Battalion was a reserve battalion as shown by the image courtesy LLT below

[Kenneth Angus]

48 minutes ago, PRC said:

Kenneth please help us to help you - which booklet is this?

Other ranks medals were automatically sent out to the last known address - and so there would be a Medal Index Card for them. That applies even if the medals were returned as undeliverable, or were held because there was no known address. The most likely circumstance where medals weren't sent out is if a man had lost his entitlement as a result of desertion. Even then a Medal Index Card was raised - they were there to help the clerks at the records office do their job not assist researchers over a century later.

But we are talking millions of individuals, and sadly it is known that a batch of Medal Index Cards were stolen from the National Archive so there are scenarios where your grandfathers army career followed the path stated without it necessarily being backed up currently by the normal sources of documentation.

Cheers,
Peter

 

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Hi @Kenneth Angus and welcome to the forum

Like many Great War era other ranks his service records appear to have gone up in flames, so would be interested to know where those dates come from.

In part that stems from that Seaforth Highlanders regimental service number - Army Service numbers that meant that one number stayed with a soldier for the whole of his career didn't come in until 1920.

Within a pre-war Regiment each type of unit (Regular, Special Reserve, Territorial Force) had their own number ranges, and sometimes even within them individual Battalions had their own ranges.

Thanks to Paul Nixon's Army Service number website we can see that S/11828 was not issued by the Regular Army Battalions in 1912. https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/09/seaforth-highlanders-1st-2nd-battalions.html
The Medal Index card for him that I could find shows him only qualifying for the Victory Medal and British War Medal - a combination that means he did not serve in a Theatre of War until at least the 1st January 1916 at the very earliest. So if he was a mobilied Special Reservist that would most likely indicate a health issue deeming him unfit for campaigning.
As a very simple check I took a look at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website for men of the Seaforth Highlanders for men with service numbers in the range S/11800 - to S/11899 and the earliest deaths I'm seeing are in July 1916 with a mix of Battalions - 1st, 8th and 9th.

That doesn't really sound like a pre-war recruit - so back to the source for that date.

Cheers,
Peter

Hello Peter, the last part doesn’t quite stack up. I have the original transfer certification from Seaforth Highlanders to Royal Engineers 101st Fueld Company on 23rd November 1915 which quotes “medals and decorations” overseas with a hand written lnb I think, which I don’t know what it means. But the timing of it rings perfect with the 23rd Division who had came over to France in September 1915 and very short on regular troops. That’s why I see 4 Seaforths join at the same time

[Kenneth Angus]

[Kenneth Angus]

Clearly states on attached “Has” served abroad. On the transfer document clearly dated 23rd November 1915 stating Original Unit Seaforth Highlands

Peter please clarify your assumptions 

my original paperwork jars with what’s presented. I also have his original date of enlistment 1912 and based at Shorncliffe which I thought was very strange but does seem to fit the narrative 

[RussT]

Transfer to the reserve 

[Kenneth Angus]

17 minutes ago, DavidOwen said:

He did not serve abroad with the Seaforth Highlanders as shown by the medal roll courtesy Ancestry.

10th Battalion was a reserve battalion as shown by the image courtesy LLT below

 

[Kenneth Angus]

Please refer to last attachment…. He did serve abroad with Seaforths according to original paperwork 

who goes from regular to reserves and is A1 fit, is that not the correct form for transfers, please show me one, I’m curious 

[DavidOwen]

No, he did not.

The discharge certificate which you have shown refers to him having served overseas with the Royal Engineers. The certificate refers to him being transferred to the reserves on demobilisation at the end of the war. All suitable soldiers were discharged this way in order to be able to recall them should hostilities flare up again.

The medal roll clearly shows he served in 10th Bn Seaforth Highlanders, a Reserve Battalion that did not leave the UK.

 

[PRC]

@Kenneth Angus

As I missing something - that discharge certificate looks to me to read that he Enlisted 23th November 1915 with the Seaforth Highlanders? Where does 1912 come from?

Cheers,
Peter

[RussT]

Must be one of the most humorous threads I've seen in a long while in which I have had the misfortune to participate.

Hopefully the performance will continue. Very entertaining.

[charlie962]

5 hours ago, Kenneth Angus said:

at least I have the original booklet on that

What booklet may I ask please?