A couple of questions about Royal Engineer Territorial uniforms

[gnr.ktrha]

Hi,
   I have a couple of rambling questions which I hope some knowledgeable member can answer. Firstly, when were Territorial Signal Service [T/Signal Service] titles first introduced? Were they made in white metal as well as gun metal?
           Secondly, a collector friend showed me an Edward VII, cipher on buttons, Royal Engineers scarlet, other ranks, dress tunic today. The tunic has yellow braid and gun metal buttons, but there are no WD acceptance stamps inside the sleeves. The shoulder straps showed signs of having Territorial unit shoulder titles on it at one time. It does have a paper label inside the rear skirt which is marked up to the 1st London Royal Engineers, which included the soldiers number and name, plus his measurements. This label has been in the tunic for a long time. I will try and get an image of the label so that I can try and research this soldier's service history. I have seen similar labels on other pre-WW1 RE Territorial dress tunics, but they always had white metal buttons and a lighter, possibly white braid. I should also mention that the buttons appeared to be original to the tunic and have been in place for a long time.
          Did the 1st London Royal Engineers by some chance wear gun metal buttons and yellow braid on their dress tunics? 
 One last thing, on the rear of the tunic, towards the left arm pit there was a brass eye sewn, something must have hooked into it. Its not been for bandsmen Wings, as it is too low and also the wings are usually secured by loops of thread sewn into the tunic. Did RE units wear cap lines or some sort of lanyard? Or what else could it be for? What ever it was must have been light as the brass eye would not support too much weight.  
        Hopefully someone will know the answer to at least one or two of these questions. 

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, gnr.ktrha said:

Hi,
   I have a couple of rambling questions which I hope some knowledgeable member can answer. Firstly, when were Territorial Signal Service [T/Signal Service] titles first introduced? Were they made in white metal as well as gun metal?
           Secondly, a collector friend showed me an Edward VII, cipher on buttons, Royal Engineers scarlet, other ranks, dress tunic today. The tunic has yellow braid and gun metal buttons, but there are no WD acceptance stamps inside the sleeves. The shoulder straps showed signs of having Territorial unit shoulder titles on it at one time. It does have a paper label inside the rear skirt which is marked up to the 1st London Royal Engineers, which included the soldiers number and name, plus his measurements. This label has been in the tunic for a long time. I will try and get an image of the label so that I can try and research this soldier's service history. I have seen similar labels on other pre-WW1 RE Territorial dress tunics, but they always had white metal buttons and a lighter, possibly white braid. I should also mention that the buttons appeared to be original to the tunic and have been in place for a long time.
          Did the 1st London Royal Engineers by some chance wear gun metal buttons and yellow braid on their dress tunics? 
 One last thing, on the rear of the tunic, towards the left arm pit there was a brass eye sewn, something must have hooked into it. Its not been for bandsmen Wings, as it is too low and also the wings are usually secured by loops of thread sewn into the tunic. Did RE units wear cap lines or some sort of lanyard? Or what else could it be for? What ever it was must have been light as the brass eye would not support too much weight.  
        Hopefully someone will know the answer to at least one or two of these questions. 

My understanding is that the Signal Service of the Corps of Royal Engineers was formally established in 1912 (following various reviews since 1908) and, as metal shoulder titles (‘designations’ officially) had been introduced in 1907, the issues began that same year. From the outset gilding metal titles were intended for corps with yellow/gold lace on full dress and white metal for white/silver laced corps.  Ergo the CRE, including the Signal Service, had GM.

The distinguishing difference between white metal buttons and white/silver lace, as opposed to gilding metal with yellow/gold lace for RA and RE, ended upon the formation of the Territorial Force, and the standing down of the Militia, to be replaced by the Special Reserve, in 1908.

From that point responsibility for kitting out the latter lay with the War Department, but the former continued to be equipped by County Associations (now for Territorial Force instead of Volunteer Force). It made standard the metal used for titles, buttons, and badges, although there was some ‘wearing-out’ of old stocks as per usual practice.  Because the Counties purchased their own uniforms, that did not necessarily come from the Royal Army Clothing Department, then you would not always see WD proof marks internally.  The 1st London Royal Engineers would indeed have worn scarlet tunics with golden yellow ‘round cord’ decoration and GM shoulder titles on upper garments with straps (others had shoulder cords). 

After some decades wearing a fur cap with cap lines since the 1860s, the Corps of Royal Engineers adopted the spiked universal blue cloth helmet in 1878.  Later on though the CRE band returned to fur caps (aka busby) and cap lines were reintroduced after WW2, in the 1960s I think, and officers too had re-adopted them for ‘optional’ full dress at levees and jamborees, etc.  I suspect that might perhaps be what you have seen the vestiges of, depending upon how long the tunic was in use, or it might relate to the pouch belt introduced as a dress feature.  However from the location you described it sounds more like the aiguillette worn by an officer aide de camp if it were an officers tunic, or more probably a RE Trumpeter’s festooned ‘bugle cord’ if an OR’s tunic (see lowermost images).

NB.  The original WW1 era RE band tunic had gold lace ribs, similar to the RA and Foot Guards (they even had bearskins too for a while) during that period l, but the 1960s band uniform is more like the standard scarlet tunic once issued to other ranks.

images via websearch and my collection.

 

Edited 19 hours ago by FROGSMILE

[gnr.ktrha]

Hi Frogsmile,
                    Thank you very much for that very full answer, it has cleared up a number of questions I had as I was under the impression that TF troops continued to wear white metal buttons and shoulder titles on their scarlet tunics, I had not realized that brass was also worn in some instances. I had always though gun metal/ brass was only worn on service dress. That has been a very interesting revelation to me.
         The tunic in question was very similar to this one shared by Toby Brayley on page 40 on the 24th December 2019 on the forum, apart from the metal work etc. It also had the same type of paper label. The only other difference I can see if that the one I was examining did not have the small waistband pocket, well at least I do not remember seeing one and I always check pockets on uniforms as you never know what might be found in them -

       As you will see, it differs from the bandsmen style worn in your excellent images. I will see if I can get images of the tunic in question, and of the metal "eye" sewn on it. I wore Busby Lines in the RHA, but the tunic attachments were very different, so I am still at a loss as to what it might have been for. 
              Very many thanks for all of your input, thoughts and helpful suggestions.
                                                Stewart