Richthofen's Initial Burial, Bertangles

[Ken Lees]

I visited Bertangles yesterday, with friends, and we discussed the film footage of the Red Baron's burial there.

As many will know, there is no reference on the site to this event and no indication of the exact location.

Looking at the film footage, we couldn't work out the exact location of the grave site. The trees and buildings in the film didn't match anything obvious there today.

Has anyone looked into this and worked it out?

Edited Saturday at 15:55 by Ken Lees

[Andrew Upton]

1 hour ago, Ken Lees said:

I visited Bertangles yesterday, with friends, and we discussed the film footage of the Red Baron's burial there.

As many will know, there is no reference on the site to this event and no indication of the exact location.

Looking at the film footage, we couldn't work out the exact location of the grave site. The trees and buildings in the film didn't match anything obvious there today.

Has anyone looked into this and worked it out?

 

Pictures and footage show von Richthofen being buried in Bertangles Communal Cemetery almost immediately by a distinctive wrought iron gate with two brick pillars leading to a tree lined road. Modern maps show that the current main entry to the cemetery via the tree lined Rue du Moulin show a virtually identical gate, presumably in the same location. By that logic if you enter the cemetery by the main gate and immediately turn right - you have the original burial site:

https://www.sciencephoto.com/media/951657/view/funeral-of-baron-von-richthofen-1918

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.9727521,2.2940049,3a,53.2y,279.11h,86.32t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1shg47c1UvvyuUtFeHEwNUTg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D3.6847626071858883%26panoid%3Dhg47c1UvvyuUtFeHEwNUTg%26yaw%3D279.11437588928595!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205410&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MDkxOC4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bertangles+Communal+Cemetery/@49.9726212,2.2933298,148m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x47e7873eda281ed5:0xcfaacdd527a93a70!8m2!3d49.9725138!4d2.2928592!16s%2Fg%2F120xzr8y?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MDkxOC4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

 

 

Edited Saturday at 17:05 by Andrew Upton

[Hein Poblome]

Have a look at my site meettheredbaron.com. In the timelines and on the map you will find pictures and video's of the burial. The grave was actually to left if you entered the gate. I was there recently and took a picture from the same vantage point of the one you posted. All of this assuming the gate was in the same place then and now....

[Ken Lees]

Thank you, both.

We assumed it was at the church, not in the communal cemetery. I will have another look next time.

[Andrew Upton]

34 minutes ago, Hein Poblome said:

...The grave was actually to left if you entered the gate ..

Why do you think it was to the left of the gate? Both photos (see above) and footage (see below) clearly show the burial party turning slightly to the right after entering through the gates (through what appears to be a gap in a corner of the hedge that intermittently runs down either side of the path to the centre of the cemetery even today). Onlookers can even be seen peering over the same hedge in the photo above - if he had somehow been buried to the left of the gate the only corresponding hedge would have meant he was being buried in the middle of the path...

 

[Andrew Upton]

A good shot from a Google search of the Red Barons first grave site:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/36786332@N00/9194096102

Edited Saturday at 18:25 by Andrew Upton

[Buffnut453]

4 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

Why do you think it was to the left of the gate? Both photos (see above) and footage (see below) clearly show the burial party turning slightly to the right after entering through the gates (through what appears to be a gap in a corner of the hedge that intermittently runs down either side of the path to the centre of the cemetery even today). Onlookers can even be seen peering over the same hedge in the photo above - if he had somehow been buried to the left of the gate the only corresponding hedge would have meant he was being buried in the middle of the path...

 

I agree that the grave is to the left of the gate.  In the first photo, the nearer of the gateposts is visually larger due to perspective, so the entry road must be on the left side of the image.

The film footage confirms this.  When the soldiers are marching past the grave, we can see more soldiers behind them, entering through the gate.  It’s clear that the soldiers turned to their left after entering the cemetery.

[Andrew Upton]

2 hours ago, Buffnut453 said:

I agree that the grave is to the left of the gate.  In the first photo, the nearer of the gateposts is visually larger due to perspective, so the entry road must be on the left side of the image.

The film footage confirms this.  When the soldiers are marching past the grave, we can see more soldiers behind them, entering through the gate.  It’s clear that the soldiers turned to their left after entering the cemetery.

That literally makes no sense. The larger of the gateposts clearly has one half of the gate present going towards the centre of the two gateposts. You can even see the corresponding opened half of the gate on the other side is folded back against the gatepost. Ergo the larger gatepost is not because it is closer to the camera or perspective but because it was built differently. Visible on the photo is what appears to be fresher mortar on the brickwork of the smaller gatepost, suggesting it has been rebuilt or repaired or similar. An additional photo (shown below) shows the party entering between these pillars. If you look even closer you can match distinctive damage and similar between the two (particularly there is one much whiter brick visible on the larger gatepost in both).

It really cannot be read any other way. The pall bearers entered the cemetery from the tree lined Rue du Moulin via the gated entrance that still exist in a virtually identical form today. From their perspective the larger gatepost with the distinctive white brick was on their left, the smaller gatepost with the fresh mortar was on their right. They immediately cut through the corner of what was then a much larger/denser shrubbery (again still existing in a smaller/modified form today) lining the right side of the path as they saw it (which went down the centre of the cemetery, and yet again still existing in a modified form today), and the grave was almost immediately located there and butting up against the shrubbery. Observers lined the path heading towards the cemetery centre, with the shrubbery lining the right side of the path as seen from outside the gates directly in front of them. The Australian party formed up and fired a volley approximately where the modern curved grey and black headstones now are as shown on the viewers right of the modern photo I linked previously.

I stand by what I said earlier - "if you enter the cemetery by the main gate and immediately turn right - you have the original burial site":

https://anzac-22nd-battalion.com/2018/04/21/21st-apr-1918-the-red-baron-killed-given-full-military-burial-by-no-3-sq-afc/

[AOK4]

I'm sorry, Andy, but I was there in 2018... It's clearly to the left when you enter. The gatepost have clearly been renovated since 1918.

[Chris Foster]

Why would the grave be dug at 90 degrees to the rest of the the other burials in the cemetery? That doesn't make sense. It can only have been located on the left! 

[Chris Foster]

[Buffnut453]

5 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

That literally makes no sense. The larger of the gateposts clearly has one half of the gate present going towards the centre of the two gateposts. You can even see the corresponding opened half of the gate on the other side is folded back against the gatepost. Ergo the larger gatepost is not because it is closer to the camera or perspective but because it was built differently. Visible on the photo is what appears to be fresher mortar on the brickwork of the smaller gatepost, suggesting it has been rebuilt or repaired or similar. An additional photo (shown below) shows the party entering between these pillars. If you look even closer you can match distinctive damage and similar between the two (particularly there is one much whiter brick visible on the larger gatepost in both).

It really cannot be read any other way. The pall bearers entered the cemetery from the tree lined Rue du Moulin via the gated entrance that still exist in a virtually identical form today. From their perspective the larger gatepost with the distinctive white brick was on their left, the smaller gatepost with the fresh mortar was on their right. They immediately cut through the corner of what was then a much larger/denser shrubbery (again still existing in a smaller/modified form today) lining the right side of the path as they saw it (which went down the centre of the cemetery, and yet again still existing in a modified form today), and the grave was almost immediately located there and butting up against the shrubbery. Observers lined the path heading towards the cemetery centre, with the shrubbery lining the right side of the path as seen from outside the gates directly in front of them. The Australian party formed up and fired a volley approximately where the modern curved grey and black headstones now are as shown on the viewers right of the modern photo I linked previously.

I stand by what I said earlier - "if you enter the cemetery by the main gate and immediately turn right - you have the original burial site":

https://anzac-22nd-battalion.com/2018/04/21/21st-apr-1918-the-red-baron-killed-given-full-military-burial-by-no-3-sq-afc/

We’ll have to agree to disagree.  To my eyes, both gates are open.  Again, the film footage clearly shows the formation of soldiers marching through the gate (behind the larger, nearer gatepost but in front of the smaller, more distant gatepost), which would necessitate a left wheel to reach the grave. 

[sadbrewer]

14 hours ago, Buffnut453 said:

We’ll have to agree to disagree.  To my eyes, both gates are open.  Again, the film footage clearly shows the formation of soldiers marching through the gate (behind the larger, nearer gatepost but in front of the smaller, more distant gatepost), which would necessitate a left wheel to reach the grave. 

 

 The phrase 'these are small....and those are far away ' springs to mind.