Seth Parmley

[Simon Waterfield]

Hello.

This is my great-uncle. I have his war medal and his victory medal. I have his medal citation which shows he was a gunner in the Royal Garrison Artillery, Number 102804 and later in the Royal Engineers number 357425. His medal edge inscription refers to the RGA and that number not the RE.

I can find no other info on him. There is no family history I can find, and no mention of him in Ancestry or the National Archives that I can find.

Can anyone point me in another direction?

Many thanks in advance

[JMB1943]

Simon,

I use FreeBMD.com to find people.

There are two births registered for a “Seth Parmley” in all of England & Wales in the period 1880-1900.

1) Q4, 1884, Rochdale

2) Q1, 1897, Skipton

I shall also look for marriage/ death entries.

Regards,

JMB

EDIT 1 x Seth Parmley marriage, Q2, 1903 , Rochdale in period 1895-1955

EDIT Seth Parmley, death, Q1, 1967, aged 83, Littleboro’

Edited Saturday at 18:54 by JMB1943
Add info

[JMB1943]

Simon,

Both of the SP’s could have served in the Great War, and both should surface on Ancestry with that birth year/ place info.

Birth/ marriage certificates (from Gov.org ???) will identify father/ mother first and last name and witnesses may be related to the bridegroom.

I’m sure that the genealogical sleuths will be along to help.

Regards,

JMB

[PRC]

Hi @Simon Waterfield and welcome to the forum

As @JMB1943 says, if Seth was born in England & Wales then the only likely matches in the civil birth record were registered in 1884 and 1897. There are no other candidates in the pre-war censuses for England & Wales.

Apologies in advance if I’ve got the family history stuff wrong!

1] Seth Parmley, mothers’ maiden name Speak, was registered with the civil authorities in the Skipton District in Q1 1897. Papers like the Bradford Daily Telegraph dated 23rd August 1899 reported on the death from scalding of an infant aged under 3 Seth Parmley, at Oakworth. He was the son of a Robert Parmley, a woolcomber. The death of a 2 year old Seth Parmley was registered in the Keighley District in Q3 1899.
Oddly he does appear to to crop up on the 1911 Census of England & Wales. However this was the first census completed by a member of the household, and, like many, Robert Parmley, head of the family and a Drawing Overlooker for a Worsted Spinner, seems to have been confused by the instructions. He lists the three children of himself and wife Isabella as:
Seth……..aged 14….born Fairshill, Yorkshire… no occupation or employment status shown.
Beatrice…aged 12….born Oakworth, Yorkshire..Worsted Dopper
Wilfred….aged 8…..born Keighley.Yorkshire.
The family were living at 15 Albion Terrace, Keighley.
But look a bit closer at some of the other questions asked and while the couple state they have been married 14 years and have had 3 children, only two were then still alive. I believe Seth Parmleys’ details has been included in error.

2] Seth Parmley, mothers’ maiden name Woolfenden, was registered with the civil authorities in the Rochdale District in Q4 1884.
1891 Census of England & Wales. Seth “Pamley”, aged 6, born Rochdale, Lancashire, was recorded living at 46 Regent, Rochdale. This was the household of his widowed mother Sarah J., (37, Charwoman, born Rochdale). Sarah has two other children living with her,
1901 Census of England & Wales. Seth Parmley, aged 16, Pork Butcher, born Rochdale, was recorded  at 13 Hanover Street, Rochdale. He was still living with widowed mother Sarah J., (47), his two siblings, plus his maternal grandmother and a couple of boarders.
Q2 1903. The marriage of a Seth Parmley to an Edith Turner was recorded in the Rochdale District in Q2 1903.
1911 Census of England & Wales. Seth Parmley, aged 26 and a Labourer for a Cardboard Box Manufacture born Rochdale, was recorded as the married head of the household at 90 Hebers, Middleton, Lancashire. He lives there with his wife of 7 years, Edith, (28, born Rochdale). The union has so far produced 4 children, of which 3 were then still alive.
Ona Parmley, 6, born Rochdale. Birth registered Q2 1904 Rochdale District.
Hilda Parmley, 5, born Manchester. Birth registered Q1 1906 Chorlton District.
Frank Parmley, 2, born Manchester. Birth registered Q2 1909 Chorlton District.
1921 Census of England & Wales. I don’t subscribe so all I can see is what is indexed on FindMyPast. Seth Parmley, born Rochdale c1884, was recorded in a household at Middleton, Oldham that consisted of:-
Edith Parmley, born Rochdale, c1883.
“Ana” Parmley, born Rochdale c1904.
Hilda Parmley, born Manchester, c1906.
Frank Parmley, born Manchester, c1909.
Leonard Parmley, born Middleton, c1912.
Rowland Parmley, born Middleston c1917
Edith Parmley, born Middleton c1921.

The only likely birth during the period when he might have been serving was Rowland Parmley, mothers’ maiden name Turner, which was registered in the Oldham District in Q3 1917. Fathers’ occupation on the birth certificate should confirm whether he was serving at that time, and may also provide helpful details like rank and unit served with – the quality of the information varied enormously, but bear in mind thas as a certifcate was needed for him to claim additional separation allowance it was a bit of an incentive to include more details.

The family address may also be on that certificate, most likely as place of birth, but also as address of informant if it was mother and father. Knowing the address then and on the 1921 Census of England of Wales could significantly narrow down the location where he might have appeared on the 1918 Absent Voter. One hasn’t been identified as yet for Middleton, but thast doesn’t rule out one existing. See our parent site, The Long, Long Trail, for more information of how this can help. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

MiC only shows the award of the Victory Medal and British War Medal, so did not enter a Theatre of War until some point on or after the 1st January 1916.

I’m not obviously spotting him in the casualty lists under either service number.

As a quick check I took a look on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, (CWGC), website for those who died serving in the Great War and whose Royal Garrison Artillery service numbers came from the block 102800 to 102899.
There were nine matches, of which eight served in different units – the ninth looks like a post-discharge death in 1920 in the UK. The first death, (102867 Gunner James Griffiths, aged 47, a married man, serving with the 262nd Siege Battery in France), occurred on the 24th April 1917. So either a lucky cohort or more likely this was around about the time they moved to France and started being parcelled out in penny packets to RGA units that were short. A fuller search for soldiers with nearby service numbers who have surviving service records may uncover recurring themes that also applied to Seth.

A check for the Royal Engineers number block 357400 to 357499 doesn’t bring up any matches on CWGC.

Hope that gets you started,
Peter

 

[Simon Waterfield]

Thanks both of you for the research!. Most helpful indeed. 

Im just a little puzzled that I can find nothing more on his war service.

Is it usual for a soldier to be transferred to such different regiments?

Again, thank you.

[JMB1943]

Simon,

You should be aware that RGA (Royal Garrison Artillery) handled the heavy, siege guns (howitzers etc) not the 13 & 18-pdr lightweights of the RFA and RHA; he perhaps had some special skill (e.g., driving a tractor, handling heavy machinery) that was needed by the Royal Engineers.

Possibly just as likely is that the RE needed some men, and the RGA had some to spare.

It was very common for wounded men from infantry battalions to be transferred to the Labour Corps, after recovery, because they were no longer fit for front-line combat duty, but could work at the docks and moving supplies etc.

The medal inscription always refers to the unit with which the man entered the theatre, not his last unit.

PRC refers to his MIC (Medal Index Card) which was prepared from the Medal Rolls by the Army records office; I know that those are available via Ancestry, so you should be able to pull up those at least.

Every soldier also had an individual service record, but about 60-70% of these were destroyed during the Blitz of WW2, so not surprising that SP’s records are not available.

@ororkep can possibly dig out some RGA info from the service number 102804.

Good Luck with your search,

JMB

[PRC]

5 hours ago, Simon Waterfield said:

Is it usual for a soldier to be transferred to such different regiments?

Not unusual but almost always because it suited the Army and wasn't driven by the individual soldier. I can think of lot's of reasons why such a transfer might have taken place, but to understand what applied in this case you may want to look at near service numbers and see how others came to join the Royal Engineers at the same time as Seth.

As I don't subscribe I can't see the detail, but as a "starter for ten", here are a few near numbers for Seths' 357425 Royal Engineers service number that appear to have surviving paperwork.

357423 David Montgomery. FindMy Past has surviving service records, indexed as born Great Britain, c1884, and commencing in 1915. Familysearch have an index online for the service records that can be seen on microfilm at one of their Family History Centres. They have them as burnt series records. Fold3 which is owned by the same company as Ancestry, looks like they have them as a 16 page service record. Ancestry also have them as a service record rather than a pension record. MiC shows him as previously 8395 Royal Garrison Artillery. Medals issued by the Royal Engineers.

357424 Harry Foster. FindMyPast has surviving service records, indexed as born Streatham, Surrey, c1893 and commencing in 1916. Familysearch have an index online for the service records that can be seen on microfilm at one of their Family History Centres. They have them as burnt series records and looks like originally he was 105277 Royal Garrison Artillery. I’m not spotting a likely match on Fold3 which is owned by the same company as Ancestry. Same with Ancestry. MiC shows both RGA and RE. Medals issued by the RE.

357427 James Walter McLean Wallace. FindMyPast have surviving service records, indexed as born Leith, Midlothian, c1876 and dating to 1919. Given the date they are most likely discharge records. Familysearch have them as burnt series records and originally 241, Royal Garrison Artillery. Fold3 have then as a 28 page Service Record, but not indexed under either service number. Ancestry have them as a service record not a pension record, but it’s not indexed with either service number. MiC has RGA service number as 138228. Ancestry have that service number indexed for those service records.

357428 Richard Neal. FindMyPast have surviving service records, indexed as born “Britsol”, Somerset c1876 and dating from 1916. No obvious match on familysearch. MiC shows he was previously 105053 Royal Garrison Artillery. Fold3 has a 26 page service record under the RGA service number. I’m not spotting anything indexed on Ancestry under either service number.

Cheers,
Peter