8th Battalion East Surrey Regiment group photo colourisation - help with uniforms.

[JoshGE]

Hi everyone,

I recently had the pleasure to get a hold of a group photograph of soldiers of the East Surrey Regiment to scan using my Epson Perfection V600. My great great grandfather 5460 Oliver Harding is second from the left at the far back, which leads me to believe this is the 8th Battalion. He arrived in France with the Battalion in August 1915, and the postcard stock print on the back is in French, so that must mean this photograph was taken in either France or Belgium. The lack of any brodie helmets must put this photograph between the dates of August 1915-early 1916, certainly pre-1st July 1916. I have decided to colourise the photo since I have such a high resolution scan of it now. There's a few things in the photograph which I wanted some help identifying either what it is, and importantly what colour it was, preferably with a reference photo to use! I will upload the main photograph followed by some cropped and zoomed in shots of specifically what I'm wondering. The full resolution photograph is around 150mb, but obviously I will have to upload downsized files!

So the first cropped image is centred around the the seated chap on the left, and those immediately around him.

Going left to right from the top first.

1.) Is this a pocket watch fob? I'm assuming this would have just been silver coloured.

2.) What on earth is this rank? He has one chevron denoting Lance Corporal, but he has what looks similar to a CSM crown surrounded by a laurel wreath patch directly above it? I'm assuming this isn't the case, but if so, what is this patch, and what did it mean/denote? I can't find it out anywhere.

3.) I was wondering what this strap around his forearm is, I've not seen it in any other photographs so it can't be standard uniform. Struggling with what it is/what purpose it had.

4.) This might be my eyes playing tricks on me, but I can see a capital letter 'W', or at least a capital letter 'V' on the same arm of the man who has the strange rank patch in the 2nd point. It almost appears to be on a horizontal strip although I'm more doubtful of this but thought I would point it out in case it is helpful. Is this some sort of strange early type of wound stripe perhaps?

This second cropped picture is taken from just above what I believe to be a pocket watch fob.

5.) This man has a medal ribbon just above his left breast pocket. I know it's a stretch but can anyone hazard an educated guess as to what medal ribbon this is? I was thinking either QSA or India 1895?

This third cropped picture is taken from the seated sergeant on the left.

6.) There is something sticking out of what appears to be his right breast pocket. Is this another watch fob or something else? Numerous men have similar things in this photograph. I'm again assuming it should just be coloured silver.

This fourth cropped picture is taken from the chest of the standing man with the moustache to the right of the commissioned officer with the cane (the commissioned officer's left). Going from left to right

7.) Again, another pocket watch fob or something like that coming from either his tunic buttons or his right breast pocket. I'm again assuming this is to be coloured silver.

8.) Another single medal ribbon, can anyone hazard an educated guess?

This fifth cropped picture is taken to the immediate right of the seated commissioned officer with the cane. From left to right starting at the top.

9.) Some googling says this is a lanyard for a jack knife? These come up in photographs somewhat regularly. Any idea what colour these were? Rope-coloured or perhaps just plain white?

10.) Another thing sticking out of his right breast pocket or maybe pinned to his tunic? This one doesn't look so much like a fob this time. I'm not really sure what it could be so any ideas?

11.) I'm assuming this is an identity disc chain? To be coloured silver.

12.) Wound stripe? Not sure which type this is, either metallic or a patch but I believe it is the gold metallic type, however it looks very different to the chaps on the right? Also, this one appears to me to bend with the fabric of the tunic, and doesn't really glisten like the one on the right.

13.) Is this an undershirt, or did the tunics have inner linings? Either way, any idea what colour this was as I'm guessing it wasn't the same drab khaki that the uniforms were.

14.) 2 wound stripes this time. They look different to ones on google which look more like the one on the left with 2 rows? These ones clearly appear metallic and I'm assuming a gold/brass colour for these?

This sixth cropped picture is taken from the arm of the man standing furthest right in the photograph.

15.) This one is another wound stripe but a fabric patch type. Does anyone know what colour this would have been? Also is this chevron a long service chevron, or an overseas service chevron - what colour what that have been?

This seventh cropped picture is taken from the chap standing second from the right.

16.) Is this another fob of some sort? It appears to be sticking out of his left breast pocket, perhaps this is a jack knife? Any ideas what colour this thing is whatever it is?

This eighth cropped picture is taken from the feet of the men furthest left in the photograph. The boots which have the red squares around the laces on the right of this picture are that of the commissioned officer's.

18.) These two pairs of boots circled (better to say squared) are the only boots in the photograph where the lace loopholes show absolutely no sun glint whatsoever. I was wondering if this was because these boots had been dyed or painted black? Also the white mark on the mans boots on the left, and just in general the rocks strewn across the floor. Does anyone else think this is chalk?

This ninth and last cropped picture is taken of the commissioned officer seated with the cane.

19.) I need help in general with this officer. He has no piping on his cuff rank?? I can't tell what rank he is. I believe the cuff ranks were removed by some battalions early in the war due to fears that snipers were picking off officers with help from their cuff ranks? Also his tie, shirt, tunic, trousers, all appear to be different obviously, but google says that officers had some amount of freedom in what they wore/what colours they were? Is this true and if so could anyone help with what colours he may be wearing or if there was a standard that ESR officers wore? Also the gloves stuffed down hus left cuff. Brown or black, if anyone knows? Or were they private purchase any anyone's guess therefore.

As a final note, the officer has a very square jawline and remarkable face which would easily be picked out of other photographs if he was captured in any. I've always wanted to possibly find out who he is if he is named in other photographs of 8th Battalion East Surrey Regiment officer photographs etc. If anyone recognised him please do share! Or anyone in the photograph on the off chance.

I know I've asked a lot, if you know just 1 or 2 bits please do share with me what you think/know as I'd love to learn, and to make the photograph coloured as realistically as possible (I've spent around 6 hours doing the uniforms so far as there are so many edges and I'm learning the software!).

Best regards,

Josh

[PRC]

12 minutes ago, JoshGE said:

the dates of August 1915-early 1916, certainly pre-1st July 1916.

The wearing of wound stripes wasn't authorised until the 4th July 1916, although it was then backdated to cover wounds from August 1914.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/tips-for-interpreting-photographs-of-men-in-uniform/whats-that-on-his-sleeve-a-wound-stripe/

These men are out of the line - note the officer isn't wearing a sidearm.

The Official Casualty List that appeared in the edition of The Times dated 31st August 1916 includes a 5460 Lance Sergeant O. Harding of the East Surrey Regiment who was wounded. Wounding is likely to be between 3 to 10 weeks earlier, sometimes longer, seldom sooner. That doesn't automatically means he was so seriously wounded as to end up back in the British Base Area on the Coast, or even repatriated to the UK - he could have been wounded and remained at his post, or returned quite quickly from a Field Ambulance \ Main Dressing Station.
But it does raise the possibility that he might not have been with the 8th Battalion when this picture was taken. Have you confirmed from the Medal Roll for his Victory Medal and British War Medal that the 8th Battalion was the only Battalion of the East Surrey Regiment that he served with in a Theatre of War?

FindMyPast has two 1917 entries for him in the dataset British Army, East Surrey Regiment 1899-1919 that might provide a little bit more in the absence of surviving service records.

Cheers,
Peter

[Andrew Upton]

The medal ribbons are those of the Queen's South Africa medal (QSA), as rendered by orthochromatic film, eg:

No.2 is a Lewis Gunner skill-at-arms badge. Usually worn on the lower left sleeve, but when worn upper arm over rank chevrons it denotes an instructor in that field:

No.15 is a Good Conduct chevron - these were identical to the standard rank chevrons:

Edited Monday at 16:58 by Andrew Upton

[Andrew Upton]

No. 19 is wearing a shoulder rank tunic - you can see a single "pip" on each epaulette showing he is a 2nd Lieutenant:  

[PRC]

@JoshGE - I hope you don't mind but I've taken the liberty of adding numbers to each of the 12 individuals - in my experience it tends to cut down some of the confusion and the need to explain which individual is being talked about.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owner.

Hopefully this is a fair summary of what's been posted as responses so far.

1: With Queens South Africa Medal as identified by @Andrew Upton
2: 5460 Oliver Harding.
3: Lance Corporal – with Lewis Gunner skill at arms badge as identified by @Andrew Upton
5: Lance Corporal  - with Queens South Africa Medal as identified by @Andrew Upton
8: Private – with good conduct chevron as identified by @Andrew Upton and wound stripe.
9: Sergeant.
10: Second Lieutenant – note also wearing collar badges but no sidearm.
11: Corporal with possibly single wound stripe.
12: Private with two wound stripes.

Cheers,
Peter

[JoshGE]

On 23/09/2024 at 17:09, PRC said:

The wearing of wound stripes wasn't authorised until the 4th July 1916, although it was then backdated to cover wounds from August 1914.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/tips-for-interpreting-photographs-of-men-in-uniform/whats-that-on-his-sleeve-a-wound-stripe/

These men are out of the line - note the officer isn't wearing a sidearm.

The Official Casualty List that appeared in the edition of The Times dated 31st August 1916 includes a 5460 Lance Sergeant O. Harding of the East Surrey Regiment who was wounded. Wounding is likely to be between 3 to 10 weeks earlier, sometimes longer, seldom sooner. That doesn't automatically means he was so seriously wounded as to end up back in the British Base Area on the Coast, or even repatriated to the UK - he could have been wounded and remained at his post, or returned quite quickly from a Field Ambulance \ Main Dressing Station.
But it does raise the possibility that he might not have been with the 8th Battalion when this picture was taken. Have you confirmed from the Medal Roll for his Victory Medal and British War Medal that the 8th Battalion was the only Battalion of the East Surrey Regiment that he served with in a Theatre of War?

FindMyPast has two 1917 entries for him in the dataset British Army, East Surrey Regiment 1899-1919 that might provide a little bit more in the absence of surviving service records.

Cheers,
Peter

@PRC Hello Peter,

Sorry for the late reply, I've only just picked up my computer from the repair shop after it decided to pack up on me with a trojan!

I stand corrected on the dates this photograph could have been taken then! So does that mean the earliest it could have been taken was 4th July 1916? Is there anyway to find a possible latest date it was taken too? I assumed my old date range based on their caps; were they still worn behind the lines even when brodie helmets were widespread?

I know Oliver was wounded twice as in his wedding photograph in August 1918, after being discharged in April of that year, he was wearing 2 wound stripes, as well as a silver war badge and what I believe to be a sergeant rank patch because of the way it is orientated, although I could be wrong as it was much smaller than the rank patches seen here. I've attached it below in case anyone can confirm if it is something else, since it's being worn on his lower arm and I don't think army regulations would allow rank insignia to be worn on civilian clothing? Also if you had a copy of that 'The Times' page that has him included could you upload it here for me please, I would be very grateful! I believe the casualty rolls for The Times are behind a paywall, and I've been trawling the War Office ones starting in 1917 for a few days now looking to see if I can find when he was wounded the second time. I will have to make a thread about him to find out more about his war service since yes you are correct that his service and medical records do not exist anymore, much to my annoyance - damned Luftwaffe.

As for the FindMyPast entries about him that you mentioned, and if he was in the 8th Battalion when this was taken due to him being wounded, I have used a free trial to view them just now. It appears they are the same transcript only records that I found on the Surrey History Centre website. They are both about his movements between battalions, presumably after being wounded as you have said? It states the following:

| Surname: Harding | Initials: O | Rank: Sgt | Number: 5460 | Date: 23-Feb-1917 | Subject: Postings | Particulars: Posted to [1st] Bn from 3rd Bn 9/2/17 | SHC Ref: ESR/2/2/25/3 | Page: 7/4 |

| Surname: Harding | Initials: O | Rank: Sgt | Number: 5460 | Date: 21-Mar-1917 | Subject: Postings | Particulars: Posted to 8th Bn [from 1st Bn] 4/3/17 | SHC Ref: ESR/2/2/25/3 | Page: 10/2 |.

These are the last known records or mentions I have of him before he is being transferred from one war hospital to another back in England on 4th January 1918. He was discharged 5th April 1918 due to wounds.

I'm really confused with all the battalion movements though. Why would he be posted from 3rd Battalion to 1st Battalion. I read on Wikipedia that 3rd Battalion was mostly used to retrain soldiers who had been wounded, and hospitalised in England, before going back to the front? Why then would he be posted to 1st Battalion for less than a month before then going back to the 8th Battalion? Would this have been an error? His medal card only lists East Surrey Regiment but doesn't state any battalions. His Victory and War Medal roll entry list 8th Btn, then 1st Btn, then 8th Btn again. Knowing that he must have known 2nd Lt Marlborough Thorne, as he had a pocket bible from his mother sent to him, and that Thorne was killed in September 1915, could it be safe to assume that therefore he served with 8th Battalion upon entry to France, then after being wounded was brought back to England for potentially the rest of 1916, recovered, was posted to the 3rd Battalion to get trained up to scratch again, was then posted to the 1st Battalion for just 1 month, and was then sent back to 8th Battalion, for the remainder of his time in the war before being wounded again in 1917, which he was later discharged as a result of on 5th April 1918? I am assuming, simply based on the number of casualties, the date he was listed as wounded in The Times, and the number of weeks after that it was recorded there, that he was either one of the wounded on 1st July 1916 or shortly after, during the infamous football charge of the 8th East Surreys, or later on near, I believe, Trones Wood, when the East Surreys saw action there too if my memory serves me correctly. Would this be the most likely cause of his injury?

I know I've probably asked a lot of questions in that, but I simply don't know much about what he did during the war and it's all a case of trying to piece together what exactly he was doing since he service records were burned or destroyed by water from the hoses.

Best regards,

Josh

I believe now that these are actually overseas service chevrons, as they look identical to ones online and would have been a blue colour, perhaps appearing white on B&W photographs. Also he was not abroad in 1914 so there would be no red chevron, and soldiers were allowed to wear them on civilian clothing. I find it strange he has 3 however, as he wasn't overseas for 3 years in WW1, serving abroad from August 1915-April 1918??? Perhaps even shorter than that as he was in England when in Hospital during 1918. He has his chevrons the wrong way around but I'm guessing he has done this on purpose to appear like a sergeant rank insignia.

[Andrew Upton]

5 minutes ago, JoshGE said:

 

I believe now that these are actually overseas service chevrons, as they look identical to ones online and would have been a blue colour, perhaps appearing white on B&W photographs. Also he was not abroad in 1914 so there would be no red chevron, and soldiers were allowed to wear them on civilian clothing. I find it strange he has 3 however, as he wasn't overseas for 3 years in WW1, serving abroad from August 1915-April 1918??? Perhaps even shorter than that as he was in England when in Hospital during 1918. He has his chevrons the wrong way around but I'm guessing he has done this on purpose to appear like a sergeant rank insignia.

 

They are upside down and on the wrong sleeve (they should be on his right) but they are indeed three blue Overseas Service chevrons. The way they were awarded is often very misunderstood - essentially three blue represents between two and three years service overseas after 1914, which fits August 1915 to April 1918 perfectly.

Edited 15 hours ago by Andrew Upton

[JoshGE]

On 23/09/2024 at 17:49, Andrew Upton said:

The medal ribbons are those of the Queen's South Africa medal (QSA), as rendered by orthochromatic film, eg:

No.2 is a Lewis Gunner skill-at-arms badge. Usually worn on the lower left sleeve, but when worn upper arm over rank chevrons it denotes an instructor in that field:

No.15 is a Good Conduct chevron - these were identical to the standard rank chevrons:

@Andrew Upton Hello Andrew,

Thank you for all the information provided here! I had never heard of a Lewis Gunner skill-at-arms badge before. It's fascinating all the details you can find from a single photograph. I will colour it accordingly, as with the medal ribbons for the QSA medal and the good conduct stripe. Also thank you for identifying the officer's rank, I had been wondering what those were on his epaulettes. Would they have been coloured like in that photo you uploaded?

I remember my grandmother saying that he had his "sergeants stripes" in a little lead box, I'm assuming that she was referring to these overseas service chevrons so I will have to try and track them down, it would be incredible to find them again. I have his medals from India, the Boer War, and WW1, and his King's Certificate of Discharge, but I don't have his SWB, his wound stripes, nor his OS chevrons, so I will have to see if I can find any or all of these.

Also, thank you @PRC for labelling the soldiers 1-12 it does make it a bit easier and I don't know why I didn't list it like that to begin with! I will colour the bits already mentioned there by you and @Andrew Upton and see what parts I have left on the uniforms once done.

Best regards,

Josh

[PRC]

2 hours ago, JoshGE said:

So does that mean the earliest it could have been taken was 4th July 1916?

In theory yes, but unlikely materials were immediately available. May explain why there are several different styles of stripes that can be seen in pictures from 1916 onwards.

2 hours ago, JoshGE said:

Is there anyway to find a possible latest date it was taken too?

The wearing of wound stripes carried on into the post-war period, before fading from use in the early twenties. Oliver would have been discharged well before that became relevant.

2 hours ago, JoshGE said:

were they still worn behind the lines even when brodie helmets were widespread?

Yes - a lightweight soft cap I would have thought would have been preferred to a Brodie, and easier to store when a head covering wa not required \ inapprorpiate.

2 hours ago, JoshGE said:

Also if you had a copy of that 'The Times' page that has him included could you upload it here for me please, I would be very grateful! I believe the casualty rolls for The Times are behind a paywall,

Forum rules prevent members from asking others to download from behind paywalls on their behalf, but I have literally given you everything there - in fact I've expanded to make it clear that it was relevant. let me know if you're after other East Surrey Regiment names appearing in the same list and I'll see what I can do.

Depending on which part of Sussex you are in, I see that members of the West Sussex Library Service have access to The Times Digitial Archive, (as well as Ancestry and FindMyPast). https://arena.westsussex.gov.uk/-/a-z-of-einformation-resources

East Sussex Library Service don't mention it, but in case it's of interest they do have Ancestry and FindMyPast as well. https://eastsussex.spydus.co.uk/cgi-bin/spydus.exe/MSGTRNGEN/WPAC/OBDS?HOMEPRMS=OBDSPARAMS

Odd neither mentions the British Newspaper Archive - it may be that the FindMyPast access they have includes Newspapers & Periodicals, which is effectively a backdoor into the British Newspaper Archive, (BNA). That doesn't include The Times, but may well give other regional papers that reprinted the Official Casualty Lists. The BNA also have those Weekly Casualty List publications and so can be a simpler way to search those. You do probably need to be onsite in a library - but could be worth investigating.

The problem you may encounter thought is that The Times started reducing the coverage of Other Ranks in The Official Casualty List late in the spring - several months before the Weekly Casualty Lists started being published. Wounded and missing in particular get missed - there was a newsprint and printers ink shortage affecting publishers. Local papers may have picked up on units and individuals relevant to them - so you be looking at the likes of the British Newspaper Archive, or Newspapers com, to try and pick his wounding up that way.

2 hours ago, JoshGE said:

I'm really confused with all the battalion movements though. Why would he be posted from 3rd Battalion to 1st Battalion. I read on Wikipedia that 3rd Battalion was mostly used to retrain soldiers who had been wounded, and hospitalised in England, before going back to the front? Why then would he be posted to 1st Battalion for less than a month before then going back to the 8th Battalion? Would this have been an error? His medal card only lists East Surrey Regiment but doesn't state any battalions. His Victory and War Medal roll entry list 8th Btn, then 1st Btn, then 8th Btn again. Knowing that he must have known 2nd Lt Marlborough Thorne, as he had a pocket bible from his mother sent to him, and that Thorne was killed in September 1915, could it be safe to assume that therefore he served with 8th Battalion upon entry to France, then after being wounded was brought back to England for potentially the rest of 1916, recovered, was posted to the 3rd Battalion to get trained up to scratch again, was then posted to the 1st Battalion for just 1 month, and was then sent back to 8th Battalion, for the remainder of his time in the war before being wounded again in 1917, which he was later discharged as a result of on 5th April 1918?

The first line in the VM & BWM Roll should reflect the first unit served with in a Theatre of War - that would be the detail that should go on his medals. His Medal Index Card shows he first landed in a Theatre of War, (France), on the 27th July 1915. Our parent site, The Long, Long Trail, shows the 8th Battalion landed at Boulogne on the 28th July 1915. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/east-surrey-regiment/

There can be all sorts of reasons for a days discrepancy, so I would treat it that Oliver accompanied the 8th Battalion when it first deployed overseas. We know from those other sources that his time with the 1st Battalion was in February\March 1917 and that Battalion is referred to only once on the Medal Roll.

His first wounding is therefore almost certainly with the 8th Battalion.

If that led to him being medically evacuated back to the UK he would have been posted on to the strength of the Regimental Depot for admin, pay and discipline purposes, while he received inpatient treatment and any subsequent convalescence.

On being found fit for duty, he would get discharge furlough, normally a week, and then told to report to the Regimental Depot.

From there he would have been posted to a home service Battalion of the Regiment, one of which in this case was the 3rd Battalion. As well as training new recruits and carrying out home defence garrison duties, it would also receive those recovered from wounds \ ill-health \ accidental injuries, and begin refresher training. The emphasis here was on physical training rather than drill, skill at arms and the like. They would be monitored to see if they were progessing to become fit for frontline service \ fit for overseas service \ fit for home service only, or not likely to recover sufficiently and so should be discharged. With the creation of the Labour Corps in the spring of 1917 this also became an option for many who previously might have been discharged.

We know by February 1917 Oliver was regarded as fit again for frontline service and was sent back to France. What we don't know for certain was whether the draft was intended for the 1st Battalion when it left the UK, or he was part of a general draft. On arrival in France they would then have been sent to an Infantry Base Depot, (IBD), on the coast in the British Base Area, (roughly Rouen to Etaples). If he wasn't already intended for the 1st Battalion, then likely that was when he was posted administratively to that Battalion. That doesn't mean he ever reached that Battalion - more likely he remained at the I.B.D. receiving training for the latest frontline practices, (or possibly as a result of ill-health), during which time a request came in from the 8th Battalion and so he was sent there instead. This was an all too common occurrence at this stage. At the time he left the UK the 1st Battalion may well have needed a draft, but they would have drawn on the men already kicking their heels at the IBD. The draft that came out from the UK was then effectively topping up the pool. It's not unknown for individuals to go through several such paperwork postings at the IBD, which makes a real mess of the medal rolls and the associated Medal Index Card. One wonders whether they were even aware or received a new capbadge and paybook each time.

3 hours ago, JoshGE said:

These are the last known records or mentions I have of him before he is being transferred from one war hospital to another back in England on 4th January 1918.

Are those hospitals both in the UK, or is that his return to the UK? Any information about what he was being treated for? How long he'd been in the first hospital?

3 hours ago, JoshGE said:

and if he was in the 8th Battalion when this was taken due to him being wounded,

Do you mean in the 3rd Battalion and after recovering from being wounded. I can't put my finger on it, but the set up to me seems relaxed enough for them to be in the UK. Given the wound stripes I don't think it stems from his first period with the 8th Battalion. Unfortunately because of how he is standing we can't see rank, wound stripes or overseas service chevrons. Overseas service chevrons were't authorised until the 20th December 1917, hence even if those present were eligible, none are on display. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/tips-for-interpreting-photographs-of-men-in-uniform/whats-that-on-his-sleeve-an-overseas-service-chevron

Cheers,
Peter

[Andrew Upton]

2 hours ago, JoshGE said:

@Andrew Upton Hello Andrew,

...Also thank you for identifying the officer's rank, I had been wondering what those were on his epaulettes. Would they have been coloured like in that photo you uploaded?...

Broadly speaking there are three types generally found on SD - plain brass, enamelled/gilt brass, and plain brass with a bronzed finish (see below). In theory the bronzed finish should be worn on SD in the period to match the cap and collar badges but it is very common on surviving originals to find the enamelled/gilt variety has been used instead. From the photo I would lean towards the bronzed variety but it really is impossible to be 100% certain:

 

[Bob Davies]

If I may add my observations.

6, 8 and 9 are carrying side arms/ bayonets.

Scabbards/and chapes seen on 8 and 9, pommel and grip seen on 6. Edit here; Scabbard and chape on 11 too.

1, 4 and 5 look like older soldiers, mustachioed and as proven by the medal ribbons on 1 and 5.

Is 4 wearing a medal ribbon?

All bar 9 and 11 are wearing shoulder titles.

The hands of 1 obscure the shoulders of 9.

It is a really good picture, I am looking forward to viewing it colorised.

Regards,

Bob.

 

 

 

[JoshGE]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

In theory yes, but unlikely materials were immediately available. May explain why there are several different styles of stripes that can be seen in pictures from 1916 onwards.

@PRC That's a good point. I'm assuming as it became more standardised, the wound stripe was changed a few times until it was mainly the metal one with the back plate. Those who were already issued one just kept what they had already been given. I believe there's 3 different types shown in the photograph. Number 12 as identified by you appears to have 2 of the metal ones with the back plate e.g. shown here:

I believe there was also one made specifically for those wounded twice, which had both stripes on one back plate, which is what I assume number 12 is wearing, and probably also Oliver in his wedding photograph considering how perfectly aligned they are. Number 11 appears to have a gold thread version sewn directly onto his uniform. The stripe begins to bend with the fabric of his sleeve and while it doesn't glint in the sun like number 12's metal ones it is still relatively light coloured in the photograph e.g.:

Then number 8's wound stripe appears darker and sewn onto his sleeve via a patch that the stripe was pre-sewn onto possibly like the one shown below e.g.:

I will colour these on the photograph accordingly! (Rest assured I will upload the finished photograph here to be critiqued if anyone is interested).

2 hours ago, PRC said:

The wearing of wound stripes carried on into the post-war period, before fading from use in the early twenties. Oliver would have been discharged well before that became relevant.

Still that gives us a start date which is good. It's a shame a date and location was never added to the photograph but I assume censorship at the time would have frowned upon it. That or it was included in a letter that the photograph was sent home with, as it was in the hands of a grandson of Oliver Harding's sister, who kindly lent it to me to scan in, and let me keep a second of Oliver by himself, though in that photograph he has no rank insignia, no wound stripes, and also no medals. He deserted multiple times/was AWOL during the Boer War and before going to India as well in 1897, and the Boer War medal roll states he was to not be awarded any medals because of it. He was with the 2 Btn Northamptonshire Regiment 5613. Obviously he was awarded them eventually as I have them today so I can only assume that he was awarded them after his WW1 service, possibly he inquired about it and they had a change of heart after his honourable discharge. That or an administrative error. Was this something done or something you've ever heard of?

2 hours ago, PRC said:

Yes - a lightweight soft cap I would have thought would have been preferred to a Brodie, and easier to store when a head covering wa not required \ inapprorpiate.

Very true, I assume it would be like wearing a baseball cap versus a safety hard hat. I know which I would choose if given a choice.

2 hours ago, PRC said:

Forum rules prevent members from asking others to download from behind paywalls on their behalf, but I have literally given you everything there - in fact I've expanded to make it clear that it was relevant. let me know if you're after other East Surrey Regiment names appearing in the same list and I'll see what I can do.

Depending on which part of Sussex you are in, I see that members of the West Sussex Library Service have access to The Times Digitial Archive, (as well as Ancestry and FindMyPast). https://arena.westsussex.gov.uk/-/a-z-of-einformation-resources

East Sussex Library Service don't mention it, but in case it's of interest they do have Ancestry and FindMyPast as well. https://eastsussex.spydus.co.uk/cgi-bin/spydus.exe/MSGTRNGEN/WPAC/OBDS?HOMEPRMS=OBDSPARAMS

Odd neither mentions the British Newspaper Archive - it may be that the FindMyPast access they have includes Newspapers & Periodicals, which is effectively a backdoor into the British Newspaper Archive, (BNA). That doesn't include The Times, but may well give other regional papers that reprinted the Official Casualty Lists. The BNA also have those Weekly Casualty List publications and so can be a simpler way to search those. You do probably need to be onsite in a library - but could be worth investigating.

The problem you may encounter thought is that The Times started reducing the coverage of Other Ranks in The Official Casualty List late in the spring - several months before the Weekly Casualty Lists started being published. Wounded and missing in particular get missed - there was a newsprint and printers ink shortage affecting publishers. Local papers may have picked up on units and individuals relevant to them - so you be looking at the likes of the British Newspaper Archive, or Newspapers com, to try and pick his wounding up that way.

That's okay, at least I know where to look now! I live in West Sussex and do have a library card so will have to make a visit and get a copy of the original. I'm intending on writing up everything I can about his war service to go with a summary of his life. When he died in 1962, and his wife in 1964, my family couldn't afford a gravestone so my great grandfather made a cement cross as he worked at a cement works, however the church wardens removed it as I assume it didn't fit in very well. They replaced it with a wooden cross which since has rotted away and the grave is now completely unmarked. The Vicar has said he knows where the grave is based on a map of the grave plots, so I'm hoping to raise money within the family for a new gravestone and so am writing up this piece, but I like including original documents within it since it makes it feel more tangible than just reading digital text.

I've searched the British Newspaper Archive for a mention of him in the casualty rolls but haven't seen him there before, although I feel it's more likely that the transcription is wrong as it can sometimes be a load of gibberish since it's not done by a human. That or like you have said it was reported during that time where there was a shortage of newsprint and ink. I'm currently doing searches through the pdf copies of the casualty rolls held by the Scottish National Library, and I believe I am only on 14 out of 88 or something like that. I'm searching for "Harding" and "5460".

3 hours ago, PRC said:

The first line in the VM & BWM Roll should reflect the first unit served with in a Theatre of War - that would be the detail that should go on his medals. His Medal Index Card shows he first landed in a Theatre of War, (France), on the 27th July 1915. Our parent site, The Long, Long Trail, shows the 8th Battalion landed at Boulogne on the 28th July 1915. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/east-surrey-regiment/

There can be all sorts of reasons for a days discrepancy, so I would treat it that Oliver accompanied the 8th Battalion when it first deployed overseas. We know from those other sources that his time with the 1st Battalion was in February\March 1917 and that Battalion is referred to only once on the Medal Roll.

His first wounding is therefore almost certainly with the 8th Battalion.

The war diary states they arrived at Boulogne at 2am on the 28th July, and that two trains left Folkestone on the afternoon of the 27th July so that may be why. The transport and machinegun section left Southampton for Havre on 26th July, possibly arriving 27th July so that may be why? Either that, or the difference of 2 hours between 27th and 28th July was just not recorded properly. Does the chap numbered by you as 3 suggest this was a Lewis Machinegun section or could soldiers trained on the Lewis Gun be attached anywhere/was this photograph likely just of a group of friends from all different sections?

3 hours ago, PRC said:

If that led to him being medically evacuated back to the UK he would have been posted on to the strength of the Regimental Depot for admin, pay and discipline purposes, while he received inpatient treatment and any subsequent convalescence.

On being found fit for duty, he would get discharge furlough, normally a week, and then told to report to the Regimental Depot.

From there he would have been posted to a home service Battalion of the Regiment, one of which in this case was the 3rd Battalion. As well as training new recruits and carrying out home defence garrison duties, it would also receive those recovered from wounds \ ill-health \ accidental injuries, and begin refresher training. The emphasis here was on physical training rather than drill, skill at arms and the like. They would be monitored to see if they were progessing to become fit for frontline service \ fit for overseas service \ fit for home service only, or not likely to recover sufficiently and so should be discharged. With the creation of the Labour Corps in the spring of 1917 this also became an option for many who previously might have been discharged.

We know by February 1917 Oliver was regarded as fit again for frontline service and was sent back to France. What we don't know for certain was whether the draft was intended for the 1st Battalion when it left the UK, or he was part of a general draft. On arrival in France they would then have been sent to an Infantry Base Depot, (IBD), on the coast in the British Base Area, (roughly Rouen to Etaples). If he wasn't already intended for the 1st Battalion, then likely that was when he was posted administratively to that Battalion. That doesn't mean he ever reached that Battalion - more likely he remained at the I.B.D. receiving training for the latest frontline practices, (or possibly as a result of ill-health), during which time a request came in from the 8th Battalion and so he was sent there instead. This was an all too common occurrence at this stage. At the time he left the UK the 1st Battalion may well have needed a draft, but they would have drawn on the men already kicking their heels at the IBD. The draft that came out from the UK was then effectively topping up the pool. It's not unknown for individuals to go through several such paperwork postings at the IBD, which makes a real mess of the medal rolls and the associated Medal Index Card. One wonders whether they were even aware or received a new capbadge and paybook each time.

Thank you for this very in depth explanation. It all makes sense and all checks out with the information at hand and adds a lot to his service that I never knew of! I know for a fact that one of his wounds, I believe the one that ended in him being discharged, was shrapnel to the head. My grandmother remembers as a child being fascinated by what she thought at the time looked like lots of big blackheads all over the right side of his temple area roughly half the size of a finger nail which she was later told was shrapnel that was just never removed, presumably it was embedded in his skull as if it was in the skin I should think it would be a quick removal? How it didn't kill him I don't know, and what produced the shrapnel I'm not sure, but it cannot have been a shell surely, I have lots of pieces of shell shrapnel relics from the Somme and Arras which are unbelievably huge and jagged. And obviously it can't have been lead shrapnel balls. My guess would be perhaps bits of the housing of a stick grenade that disintegrated into tiny pieces upon detonation as this is the only thing I can think of that would produce lots of bits of shrapnel this small that had any sort of chance of getting stuck in someone's skull without actually killing them outright. I sometimes joke with my grandmother I could find the grave plot of his by using a metal detector! I'm not sure if it was actually bits of shrapnel or just the scars, but after 40 odd years I would think the scars would no longer be dark/black. Although I doubt it, my great grandmother thought that when he died it must have been a piece of the shrapnel moved and hit his brain. Obviously this isn't what happened for many obvious reasons but also because he died after being weakened by a bad infection after cutting himself on a wood saw when he was about 80. This might seem irrelevant but if my great grandmother thought that then that must mean it was indeed shrapnel in his head and not scars, and that this must have been how he was wounded the second time.

When he was discharged as well, he was supposedly a Company Sergeant Major, although my grandmother says Oliver Harding's wife (her grandmother) says he never acted as one as he was wounded (the second time), and that he was promoted for saving his friends life by dragging him back into the trench from no man's land. There are a few records that do record him as a CSM, including a newspaper clipping of his marriage, and a medical record transcript from Forces War Records. I believe she said it was during this event he was wounded in the head, but I will have to ask her again later this week as it might have been a little before. Now it must be kept in mind she would have been told this many decades ago, and although I believe the basic story around it, and it could all be completely correct, she obviously isn't a military historian and is just reciting what she remembers. Was this a done thing during WW1? i.e. promotions given e.g. Sgt --> CSM for an act of bravery or life saving, rather than how it is now with promotions given based on length of service, good conduct, and experience? I would have thought a medal would be awarded instead. Was this done instead sometimes, or perhaps a choice was given? I recall her saying that the rank was almost "honorary" or something along those lines, but again I will have to clarify with her. It would explain why he "never actually acted as a CSM" if he was wounded during the act, although would a promotion for an action like that take place after he was wounded and presumably being evacuated back to England due to his wounds? The only records I have of him being a CSM also come from sources after he had been evacuated back to England. Most importantly, though I don't doubt he was promoted to CSM due to the records I have seen from the time combined with what my grandmother and her sisters have said, he isn't actually recorded as being a CSM but rather just a Sgt on his medal index card, SWB record, on the inscriptions on his WW1 medals, on the victory and war medal rolls, his King's certificate of discharge, and his pension record index cards. Now I have been told that this can be due to the fact that records were kept at battalion headquarters and also another set with the regimental depot, and that during wartime it was hard to update these things e.g. I know for a fact he was at some point a Private, a Corporal, a Lance Sergeant, a Sergeant, and a Company Sergeant Major, however only "PTE" and "SJT" are recorded on his medal index card. What would be the reason he appears to only loosely be referred to as a CSM? And why were his medal inscriptions not CSM instead of SGT if he was indeed a CSM? Perhaps it was only temporary and these were not inscribed on medals? If so was this something that was given for bravery/life saving as my grandmother claims, that being a temporary promotion?

4 hours ago, PRC said:

Are those hospitals both in the UK, or is that his return to the UK? Any information about what he was being treated for? How long he'd been in the first hospital?

I will upload the records here as they include all the information that I have of his medal records. They were both from Forces War Records:

What most confuses me about these is the "date of discharge with NEW AILMENT" of "melancholia". By all accounts he was severely shell shocked and it affected him greatly for the rest of his life. Would melancholia mean PTSD/Shellshock in this case? And why is it described as "new ailment", is it that he was moved from depot to 3rd Battalion after recovering from his wounds, but was just so psychologically scarred by this point that he was beyond being able to carry out his duties any further? His reason for discharge was due to wounds on his SWB rolls record, however why would this record it as "date of DISCHARGE with new ailment" if he was discharged due to wounds? Regarding his shellshock, he was incredibly short tempered, could not stand the slightest bit of noise, and fell out with people easily, and so he, his wife, and his daughter moved from town to town all over Sussex and Surrey, sometimes every few months, as he would fall out with employers he would game keep for (I believe he was a rabbit catcher). While he was in hospital recovering, he was apparently shown embroidery as a way to take his mind off of things and to help with rehabilitation, and he embroidered an East Surrey Regiment cap badge which is framed in a wooden frame, but sadly it's in a sorry state because of how old it is with a large rip but I'm sure it could easily be repaired. I will upload it here in case it is of interest although it was taken years ago on an old iPhone so the quality isn't great. I think it might have been some sort of primitive way to treat what was only just being recognised then as what we know today to be Combat PTSD, and he seemingly used it as a way to ground himself throughout his life, as he used to sit for hours and hours making fishing nets by hand, carving pea sticks and bean poles to sell at the roadside, and would go fishing all the time, all very patience based things, and I can only guess he learnt it from this as a way to cope.

5 hours ago, PRC said:

Do you mean in the 3rd Battalion and after recovering from being wounded. I can't put my finger on it, but the set up to me seems relaxed enough for them to be in the UK. Given the wound stripes I don't think it stems from his first period with the 8th Battalion. Unfortunately because of how he is standing we can't see rank, wound stripes or overseas service chevrons. Overseas service chevrons were't authorised until the 20th December 1917, hence even if those present were eligible, none are on display. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/tips-for-interpreting-photographs-of-men-in-uniform/whats-that-on-his-sleeve-an-overseas-service-chevron

As for this part, before I read this to reply to it, I believe I have found where the photograph was taken, at least if what I have found can be taken for face value. Using google lens online, I can find many many other photographs seemingly taken at the same spot, with the same bush/tree in the left, the same ground with the chalky rock, and the huge slab of chalk at the bottom right, the same ivy covered walls, and the same chairs. Two of these photographs taken in March 1918 state that it was taken near Arras. I also don't know if I forgot to mention but the postcard stock on the back of the photograph is written in French so it must have been developed in France or Belgium. I will add a photograph of it below, along with the other photographs of the same area that I found. Also the links to the IWM page that states Arras is here (I believe if we can find out where the 9th Battalion Black Watch were in March 1918 then it would confirm the general whereabouts of the photograph, which, using war diaries for 1st and 8th Battalion ESR, could be used to date the photograph more precisely! I know this may sound like a lot of effort and very overboard just to date a photograph but I do enjoy this detective work and it does really help piece together his wartime service! Here is the link to the site on Imperial War Museum: https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/4296314 note in this first link the exact same setting and the same chair the 2nd Lt in Oliver's photograph is sitting on is here. Also: https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/7690830 both of these links say Arras. Here are the photographs taken at the same place I could find, though I have seen even more before:

4 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

Broadly speaking there are three types generally found on SD - plain brass, enamelled/gilt brass, and plain brass with a bronzed finish (see below). In theory the bronzed finish should be worn on SD in the period to match the cap and collar badges but it is very common on surviving originals to find the enamelled/gilt variety has been used instead. From the photo I would lean towards the bronzed variety but it really is impossible to be 100% certain:

@Andrew UptonThose are some really great displays and a great reference too, is the display contemporary as the writing looks very old? This begs the question, would all the brass fixtures on the uniforms in this photograph of the East Surreys have been bronzed? Presumably to stop them from glinting in the sun and attracting snipers? I was going to colour the webbing buckles, all the buttons, cap badges, collar badges, etc, as a bright golden brass colour as this is what I see on original uniform examples, but would this have not been the case and they were bronzed instead?

Many thanks to everyone for all the help and information so far, I am greatly indebted to you all as this has been both eye opening and invaluable so far.

Best regards,

Josh

[JoshGE]

33 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

If I may add my observations.

6, 8 and 9 are carrying side arms/ bayonets.

Scabbards/and chapes seen on 8 and 9, pommel and grip seen on 6. Edit here; Scabbard and chape on 11 too.

1, 4 and 5 look like older soldiers, mustachioed and as proven by the medal ribbons on 1 and 5.

Is 4 wearing a medal ribbon?

All bar 9 and 11 are wearing shoulder titles.

The hands of 1 obscure the shoulders of 9.

It is a really good picture, I am looking forward to viewing it colorised.

Regards,

Bob.

@Bob Davies Hi Bob,

It definitely looks like they have their bayonets and scabbards, it's amazing how much you can spot when colourising an image, especially around edges almost pixel by pixel. It really is true that a photograph can speak a thousand words!

I agree regarding 1, 4, and 5. Number 4 is my great great grandfather Oliver Harding who would have been (assuming this was taken in 1917) 36 years old or thereabouts, and I know for a fact (because I have them) that he was awarded the India Medal with Punjab Frontier 1897-1898 clasp, the Queen's South Africa Medal with clasps Relief of Kimberley, Transvaal, Orange Free State, and Cape Colony, and the King's South Africa medal with claps South Africa 1901 and South Africa 1902. The thing is, on his medal roll for the QSA, he is noted as having "no medals - deserter". He deserted multiple times from what I can find! He was found guilty by a court martial and sentenced to years of hard labour, however before what would have been his release date he had already married his first wife and had his first child, so he must have been released early is my guess. My grandmother says that he was so young (around 18 at the time) and clearly didn't really want to be in the army anymore. She thinks he didn't like being bossed around and on top of that he loved South Africa, plus combined with probably what was the fear of fighting in a strange and foreign land, and the fact that I think he ran away from home to join the army obviously not expecting to be plunged into war, he left his piquet and deserted, started working in a local bakery, and two officers came in to buy bread. They picked him out from the Afrikaners who all had blue eyes, blonde hair, and fair skin, whereas he had black hair, dark brown eyes, and a very dark tanned complexion. Needless to say they soon dragged him back to the regiment and he was court martialled for deserting. Going back to the medals, he may or may not have had his medal ribbons at this point in time. I'm just not sure when they were awarded as they obviously eventually were. If it was after the war then he wouldn't have any in this photograph, but if it was during, or before, then he should have the three medals ribbons for the medals listed above. I did see what you were talking about before, but I'm not sure if it's just my eyes playing tricks on me/imperfections with the photograph. It doesn't appear to be 3D like with the other 2 ribbons that cast shadows on the side of them, however he is behind some people so perhaps it's shaded? I can't really tell, but if it is it would be the India Medal Ribbon. I will attach a diagram below of what I see and maybe it's the same thing you saw?

As for the shoulder titles, I've had a look on my full resolution copy that I can't upload here as it's too large, and I believe I can JUST about see should titles on 11, they are appearing completely side on and are really hard to see but I think they are there, but as for 9 I can't tell as, like you said, number 1's hands are covering them.

I will be sure to upload the finished photograph here once colourised and I'm looking forward to making any corrections to it as well!

Best regards,

Josh

P.S. I have attached the reverse of the group photograph, which I forgot to do in my post above, meaning the photograph must have been taken in France or Belgium, as the postcard stock is in French*

Also attached is the photograph of Oliver Harding by himself, also during WW1, which I only have thanks to the generosity of @Peterhastie, and also identified by him as well, and confirmed by my grandmother who I showed it to. Finally, I have also attached his medals in their original display case, with newspaper clippings, plus his King's Certificate of Discharge, and the 2 photographs Peter provided me with, just because I have referenced it many times now!

[PRC]

16 minutes ago, JoshGE said:

The war diary states they arrived at Boulogne at 2am on the 28th July, and that two trains left Folkestone on the afternoon of the 27th July so that may be why. The transport and machinegun section left Southampton for Havre on 26th July, possibly arriving 27th July so that may be why? Either that, or the difference of 2 hours between 27th and 28th July was just not recorded properly.

Pre-war practice seems to have been to date the "arrival" as when the individual sailed, and thus came off the home command. In most cases with those going to France it makes no practical difference but can mess things up with units going further oversea if the clerk completing the roll and associated MiC used those details. Additionally on all but a couple of dates it made no difference to the medals to be awarded, so there were no prizes for the clerks doing the work for time spent ensuring total accuracy. In other cases the date used is when the Battalion paraded in full for the first time and was taken on the strength of the British Expeditionary Force, (or it's equivalent in other Theatres). So I think we can say with certainty he landed in France with the 8th Battalion.

24 minutes ago, JoshGE said:

Does the chap numbered by you as 3 suggest this was a Lewis Machinegun section or could soldiers trained on the Lewis Gun be attached anywhere/was this photograph likely just of a group of friends from all different sections?

Taking a step back, the Lewis Machine Gun wasn't widely deployed in the British Infantry until the end of 1915 \ start of 1916, and ties in with the creation of the Machine Gun Corps, (MGC). Up until the creation of the MGC each Infantry Battalion had Machine Gun sections, an asset that was therefore controlled by each Battalion commander. With the MGC the intention was to draw these sections together from each Battalion that made up a Brigade into a new Machine Gun Company, and thus a Brigade General asset to deploy as they felt necessary - a reflection of the role of the Machine Gun on the battlefield. (A later revision in 1918 would see the Companys rolled up into a Divisional Battalion). But in recognition of the fact that simply to remove the Machine Gun sections would lead to an overall reduction in firepower, this re-organisation was staggered, so that as the new Vickers medium machine guns, (for the MG Companys) and sufficient quantities Lewis Guns became available, individual Divisions would be trained on the new equipment and the cutover to the new organisation. The 8th Battalion were part of 18th (Eastern) Division. Our parent site, the Long, Long Trail, shows the new Machine Gun Companys in each Brigade of that Division coming into being on the 13th February 1916.  http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/18th-eastern-division/

In my experience semi-formal shots like the one involving Oliver tend to be section \ platoon based or something similar. A man trained on Lewis Guns could be performing other roles in the Battalion, and I'm not aware of Lewis Gun sections. Increasingly as the war went on, for instance, the rear Transport lines would have the guns deployed on Anti-Aircraft duty, so cooks, grooms and storesmen may well have been trained up - they were after all infantrymen and still expected to demonstrate skill at arms on a regular basis.

41 minutes ago, JoshGE said:

I know for a fact that one of his wounds, I believe the one that ended in him being discharged, was shrapnel to the head.

Bear in mind this may not have been part of the original ordnance but fragments of whatever that bullet \ grenade \ shell \ bomb etc, hit on exploding.

48 minutes ago, JoshGE said:

I know for a fact he was at some point a Private, a Corporal, a Lance Sergeant, a Sergeant, and a Company Sergeant Major, however only "PTE" and "SJT" are recorded on his medal index card. What would be the reason he appears to only loosely be referred to as a CSM?

The medal index card tells us his original rank on entering a Theatre of War, (Private), as that rank information was required for the inscription on his 1914/15 Star. It also tells us the highest rank reached in a Theatre of War before the Armistice, (Serjeant). That rank information was required for his Victory Medal and British War Medal. If he reached a higher rank while serving in the UK that was irrelevant to the purpose of the MiC.

At the time that wounding report appears in the The Times at the end of August 1916 he is recorded as a Lance-Serjeant, so probably a good point to touch on Lance ranks and also acting Ranks.

Lance ranks were actually appointments rather than a specific promotion. They were in the gift of the Officer commanding the Battalion, and many such positions attracted no additional pay. They were often used a trial run to see if the individual was ready to take the next step up. But they were unit specific, so if a man left the unit, (say by being medically repatriated to the UK), then he would revert to his substantive rank. On joining a new Battalion his new C.O. might bump him up again but that can't be taken for granted.

The Battalion had a set establishment of NCO's if it was campaigning, (lower ones if it was on garrison or home service duties). It's easy to lose track off in wartime, but a Battalion also had a budget. So a Commanding Officer couldn't just give his long serving troops a pay-rise by making them NCO's. Many would be promoted on an acting unpaid basis - and if the next draft brought NCO's who had been confirmed in rank, (i.e. a confirmed Corporal was a Corporal anywhere in the British Army, an acting Corporal was unit specific), then the acting rank soldier lost out. Taken in extreme a Private could be an Acting unpaid Corporal who was appointed Lance-Serjeant. A change of unit, (or less likely, a change of Commanding Officer), could see him revert back to Private. It's also a fairly regular occurrence that individuals did not feel at ease with promotion and so asked to be reverted, often back to the ranks, but sometimes just to a lower rank.

2 hours ago, JoshGE said:

When he was discharged as well, he was supposedly a Company Sergeant Major, although my grandmother says Oliver Harding's wife (her grandmother) says he never acted as one as he was wounded (the second time), and that he was promoted for saving his friends life by dragging him back into the trench from no man's land.

If this wasn't seen by an Officer then unlikely a medal would have been awarded. Such behaviour may have been enough to get him recommended for a vacant Company Sergeant Major position, but he may have been wounded before the paperwork, sent on a daily basis by the Battalion,  got to the records office that dealt with the East Surreys telling them he'd been appointed Acting Unpaid Company Sergeant Major. Or he was simply promoted to that rank while back in the UK after the second wounding. I would expect that to be confirmed on his pension card though. Company Sergeant Majors were Warrant Officers Class 2 and so were on a different pension scale to the ordinary rank and file.

I'm not seeing medal ribbands on either picture of Oliver in uniform. he may have successfully petitioned post war for his entitlement to the earlier campaign medals to be re-instated.

2 hours ago, JoshGE said:

He was with the 2 Btn Northamptonshire Regiment 5613.

His service records from the period appear likely to have been rolled into his Great War Service records, and thus in the Warehouse that was subsequently burnt out.

I can see a couple of service records relating to men discharged honourably or dishonourably from the Northamptonshire Regiment prior to 1914 and which might be of interest to you.

5610 Henry Brown attested at London on the 7th October 1898, enlisting for a short service of 12 years, split 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves. He was then serving in the 3rd Volunteer Battalion of the East Surrey Regiment. He was enlisting directly into the 2nd Battalion, which he joined at Aldershot on the following day. Then, or shortly thereafter he would have been issued with his new regimental service number. He left for South Africa on the 21st October 1899, remaining there until 1904. he was posted to the Army Reserve in 1905, and became time expired in 1910. He received the Queens South Africa Medal with three clasps.

5614 William Parrott attested at Aldershot on the 11th October 1898, enlisting for a short service of 12 years, split 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves. He had no previous military experience. He was enlisting directly into the 2nd Battalion, which he joined at Aldershot on the same day. Then, or shortly thereafter he would have been issued with his new regimental service number. He left for South Africa on the 21st October 1899. He was appointed unpaid Lance Corporal on the 4th January 1900. This was upgraded to paid Lance-Corporal on the 1st July 1901. On the 15th January 1902 he was promoted Corporal, but later that year after a transfer to the 1st Battalion he asked to revert to Private. he extended his time in the Colours to 8 years, moving to the Reserve subsequently and then becoming time expired in 1910. He received the Queens South Africa Medal with four clasps, and the Kings South Africa Medal with two.

I'll take a look at some of your other questions later.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[Andrew Upton]

3 hours ago, JoshGE said:

  @Andrew UptonThose are some really great displays and a great reference too, is the display contemporary as the writing looks very old? This begs the question, would all the brass fixtures on the uniforms in this photograph of the East Surreys have been bronzed? Presumably to stop them from glinting in the sun and attracting snipers? I was going to colour the webbing buckles, all the buttons, cap badges, collar badges, etc, as a bright golden brass colour as this is what I see on original uniform examples, but would this have not been the case and they were bronzed instead?

The picture was taken by myself of a display in the DCLI regimental museum 16 years ago. They have it dated as 1933 but in my opinion it is clearly older, and presumably was last updated/checked etc in 1933. Just out of view on the left is a similar set of sample materials/braid approved for making cuff rank tunics and breeches from 1902. Used by the regiment to try and ensure uniformity.

No, not all the fixtures would have been bronzed, just features like the cap badge, collar badges, and rank badges. The rest of the buttons etc would have been plain brass. Early in the war brass fittings were allowed to tarnish on active service for camouflage purposes but this order was quickly rescinded  (serving authors like George Coppard considered this an act of madness) and so would have been regularly polished bright again by the time of the photo.