Help required with James Profit Isbister RNR 1267 L service record

[Alison Smith]

I've come across another two Shetland RNR seamen while researching my husband's family history and while I can follow a lot of their service records, there are some areas which are new to me that I'd appreciate help with. 

I'll start with James Profit (sometimes Prophit) Isbister who enlisted in the RNR in Lerwick in November 1915 as 1267 L.  I've attached his service record from TNA and the timeline I have put together but here's a few of the things that don't make sense to me.

He was transferred to HMS Pembroke (Chatham) in August 1916 but was on a hospital ship in Scapa Flow in January 1918.

His Schedule 32 retainer was paid under Lark from 14 August 1919 to 2 August 1921, during which time he went to South Georgia to work on a whaling vessel for a year, but I can't find a Lark that fits that timeframe or why a RNR seaman would go whaling.

His final discharge doesn't seem to have been recorded but it could be amongst the entries on the bottom right corner of page 3 of his record which I can't work out.

 

 

 

James P Isbister RNR 1267 L BT-377-7-76287.pdf James P Isbister 1267 L timeline.pdf

Edited Tuesday at 08:24 by Alison Smith

[horatio2]

Some dates incorrectly transcribed should read:-

28.7.1918     From Lerwick to VICTORY.

20.8.1918     From VICTORY to PEMBROKE.

13.9.1918     To trawler section …

His time in GLORY/COALAXE is likely to have been :-

16.9.1918     PEMBROKE to GLORY at Murmansk.

11/10/1918   1.10.1918 COALAXE arrived at Murmansk (GLORY) and he probably joined her on arrival.

11.11.1918  COALAXE is transferred from GLORY to VICTORY. The 18.11.1918 date appears to be an error.

His “final discharge” would appear to be the termination of his 5-year period as 1267.L on 3.11.1920 (not 1921 as stated).  He seems, however, to have been retained for further RNR service  (and paid a  ‘peace retainer’) until 1921. I think that your transcription “Lark” is a shortening of “Lerwick”where his retainer was paid.

“…why a RNR seaman would go whaling.”  Whynot? He had not been mobilised so was free to follow any employment.

Edited Wednesday at 07:59 by horatio2
Amended date 1.10.1918

[KizmeRD]

 

1 hour ago, Alison Smith said:

His Schedule 32 retainer was paid under Lark from 14 August 1919 to 2 August 1921, during which time he went to South Georgia to work on a whaling vessel for a year, but I can't find a Lark that fits that timeframe or why a RNR seaman would go whaling.

Whale oil was an extremely important war material.  58,000 whales were killed during the Great War to provide Britain and its allies with the oil they needed to continue fighting.

Whale oils were also used to make high quality lubricant for cleaning rifles and for many other military instruments and machines. Whale grease applied to the feet could help prevent trench foot and pilots even smeared whale grease on their faces to protect them from wind chill. Whale blubber could also be processed into glycerine for soap (or as a component of nitro-glycerine).

After the war, whale oil remained an important raw material. The Shetlands was a traditional whaling community and when northern Arctic whaling began to decline, they moved south to richer hunting grounds in Antarctica. Christian Salvesen were one of the main whaling firms, but by 1963, the British had abandoned whaling in Antarctica entirely, due to a combination of overfishing and increased regulation by the International Whaling Commission .

https://www.carolinehack.com/shetland-whaling-heritage/

M.

Edited Tuesday at 10:01 by KizmeRD

[Alison Smith]

Thanks guys for the info but I feel stupid about getting those dates wrong - trying to look at 2 people's records at once is probably not a good idea...

I'll get back with more questions when I've had time to absorb this but would you have any idea what he would have been doing at Lerwick Naval Base from June 1916 to July 1918, during which time he was on the hospital ship at Scapa Flow.  Would he have been back in the Shetland Section or attached to the Naval Base in some way?

Cheers Alison

 

[horatio2]

His first service at Lerwick seems to have been divided between two periods of employment in the naval base (4 Nov 1815 to 17 May 1916 and 20 June 1916 to 25 July 1918). The five weeks between these two periods saw him drafted to HMS BRILLIANT.

It appears he was sent to the hospital ship (presumably for unstated treatment) from 31 December 1917 to 3 January 1918.

His duties would have been those of a junior seaman rating but cannot be stated in more detail other than to note that the Shetland Section RNR was employed in local defence involving patrolling and manning look-out posts. His short period in BRILLIANT would probably have been supporting the trawlers and drifters which she parented.

[JohnH]

I have attached below the Establishment of Shetland Section R.N.R. on 12 August 1916, to give you an idea of the various posts held by the men including those over military age. Source: TNA ADM 137/2250.

John 

[KizmeRD]

John - Thank you for posting, highly informative.

M.

[JohnH]

The Hospital ship HMHS Berbice was stationed at the port of Lerwick, Shetland during his treatment from 31 December 1917 to 3 January 1918.

I have attached HMHS Berbice movement records from this time.

Source: TNA BT165/1942.

You can find photo's during HMHS Berbice stay in Shetland below.

Shetland Museum and Archives::Quick Search

[Alison Smith]

Hi John, I wondered if you might pop in on this

Thanks so much for your Shetland information which is doubly helpful as the other Smith relation I am looking at was also with the Shetland Section from January 1915 to July 1916.

Cheers Alison

[Alison Smith]

Hi @horatio2 and @KizmeRD 

Thank you for the education on whaling and I also hadn't clicked that once the war was over that a reservist was then able to go back to work while being paid a retainer.  Makes more sense why James went whaling and it also explains the Shetland addresses on page 3 of his record.

When James was posted to England in July 1918, would he have had any training of any sort in either Portsmouth or Chatham before he was posted to the Trawler section?

Do you have any idea what COALAXE would have been doing at Murmansk once James joined her.   Also when she (and I assume James) were transferred to VICTORY when the war ended, would they have remained in Murmansk or headed back to the UK, presumably to Portsmouth since they were under VICTORY.  It would have been a miserable time of the year to have gone back to England.

Also I came across something somewhere that implied that the Shetland Section was based on HMS PEMBROKE

at Chatham.  Is that correct and if so would it have been for accounting purposes only?

Cheers

Alison

 

Edited yesterday at 08:23 by Alison Smith

[horatio2]

The few weeks at Portsmouth and Chatham in July to September 1918 may well have included some training and issue of kit for his draft north to HMS COALAXE but such detail is not recorded. There is also no way of telling on which dates he was on passage to Murmansk, nor the dates of his passage back to Portsmouth in November. Portsmouth in November could have seemed quite tropical compared to the White Sea.

COALAXE would have been one of several trawlers based on HMS GLORY at Murmansk and employed on minesweeping and general patrol and escort duties in the White Sea as far south as Archangel when that post was not closed by ice. COALAXE returned to the White Sea later in 1919.

It is not clear to me that men serving in the Lerwick Naval Base were carried (for pay and admin) on the books of HMS PEMBROKE. The Shetland Section RNR seems to have had a stand-alone status, “Lerwick” appearing in records as if it were a commissioned ship HMS LERWICK. However, men were borne on the books of HMS BRILLIANT and (earlier) HMS ZARIA. A bit of a puzzle! Perhaps @JohnH has an insight.

[JohnH]

8 hours ago, horatio2 said:

It is not clear to me that men serving in the Lerwick Naval Base were carried (for pay and admin) on the books of HMS PEMBROKE. The Shetland Section RNR seems to have had a stand-alone status, “Lerwick” appearing in records as if it were a commissioned ship HMS LERWICK. However, men were borne on the books of HMS BRILLIANT and (earlier) HMS ZARIA. A bit of a puzzle! Perhaps @JohnH has an insight.

@horatio2 I have found some correspondence from Nov. 1915 between Naval Commanders stationed in Shetland pertaining to the loan of men from the Shetland Section R.N.R., which may shed some light on this subject. I have attached them below: Source TNA ADM 137/2250.

Edited 15 hours ago by JohnH

[horatio2]

Thank you, @JohnH. An interesting exchange. Sadly, it does not answer the question, which is: "To which commissioned ship did the men of Shetland Division RNR belong when at Shetland?"  Or, put another way, "On whose books were the men recorded as 'Lerwick Naval Base' (or'NB Lerwick') borne?".  The answer must be a commissioned ship, as required by the Naval Discipline Act.

After further consideration, I think they must have been borne on the books of the same ship(s) that carried men assigned to the resident Lerwick depot ship/parent ship, i.e. HMS BRILLIANT (from 1 Nov 1915 to 26 Jan 1918) and HMS AMBITIOUS (from 26 Jan 1918 to 13 Dec 1919).  Before BRILLIANT arrived at Lerwick the Shetland men were borne on the books of HMS ZARIA at Orkney.

This conclusion is supported by an entry in the record of Lt Col Charles E COLLARD RM who, in April 1918, was appointed "AMBITIOUS. Special Service For duty as Commanding Officer of the Shetland Section RNR."

I think it is pretty certain that the men under his command were also borne by AMBITIOUS.

The puzzle remains as to why just Leriwick or Lerwick NB is such a common entry when most naval records record the parent ship's name.

[JohnH]

1 hour ago, horatio2 said:

The puzzle remains as to why just Leriwick or Lerwick NB is such a common entry when most naval records record the parent ship's name.

@horatio2 excellent explanation. Is it possible that the use of Lerwick NB was used to distinguish between shore based personnel and those members of the Shetland Section who were lent on a temporary basis to the depot ships. I have attached a recommendation for an honour for a member of the Shetland Section RNR which shows how these men were recorded on a standard form.

 Source TNA ADM1/8540  

[horatio2]

Thank you. His RNR record notes him as "NB Lerwick (AMBITIOUS)" which supports my hypothesis.

I expect the pay accounts of the depot ships had separate Lists for:   

(a) their ship's company and supernumeraries;

(b) men serving in parented Auxiliary Patrol trawler tenders;   and

(c) men serving ashore in the Lerwick Naval Base.

[JohnH]

5 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

His RNR record notes him as "NB Lerwick (AMBITIOUS)" which supports my hypothesis.

@horatio2 excellent, job well done. 

Another record re Leading Seamen John Robert Garriock Morrison L1473. He was employed as a Pay Clerk. Source TNA ADM1/8540  

[Alison Smith]

13 hours ago, JohnH said:

I have found some correspondence from Nov. 1915 between Naval Commanders stationed in Shetland pertaining to the loan of men from the Shetland Section R.N.R., which may shed some light on this subject. I have attached them below: Source TNA ADM 137/2250.

@JohnH I just checked back on John William Smith from Troswick that I asked about a few months ago and he was posted from Lerwick to GIBRALTAR on 28 January 1916 and back to Lerwick on 15 March 1916.  Your info above suggests he would have been one of a group that was lent to GIBRALTAR at Swarbacks Minn for general duties during that time.  Another little snippet of history to include thanks.