CWGC tombstones for French soldiers

[Keith_history_buff]

This is not as straightforward as it may seem.

During the WW1 centenary, there was a CWGC dataset available via FindMyPast. Within said dataset, it was possible to identify those soldiers of the French Army who were commemorated by CWGC.

At that time, they were not appearing on searches of the CWGC website. Several years later, that is still the case.

The two questions that I have are

1. What would have been the circumstances whereby a French soldier would be commemorated by CWGC, and have one of their iconic gravestones?
2. Why is it that although these gravestones were put there by CWGC, they no longer appear in the database search results? It is now the case that the French government is responsible for the upkeep of those graves, hence it is no longer listed by CWGC?

In contrast to this, the Belgian soldiers commemorated by CWGC do appear in the database.

Thanks for reading
Keith

[Keith_history_buff]

I am aware of the following soldiers of the Armée française commemorated by the CWGC

interpreter Louis Eugène RENAULT of the French Army (10 Aug 1871 - 4 June 1916) 
Grave 8.A.20
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/44043818/louis-eugene-renault

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/4429-foreign-war-graves-in-cwgc-care/page/2/#comment-2698828

Louis Jules Jean Baptiste Quilico (11 Oct 1880 - 24 Aug 1914) Audregnies, Elouges, Hainaut, Belgium
Maréchal des Logis, 1518, 6ème Régiment des chasseurs à cheval
Attached to 9th Queen's Royal Lancers

Antoine Pallot (2 Feb 1884 - 18 May 1918)
Sergent, 019384, 42e Régiment d'Infanterie

Pierre Lavieille (4 Dec 1881 - 8 Oct 1915) Died of wounds Habarcq, Arras, France
Soldat de 2e Classe, 369, 63e Régiment d'Infanterie

Rene Charles Marie Pierre Gardeur (15 May 1882 - 13 May 1918) Nécropole Nationale Saint-Pierre CWGC Cemetery/Memorial Dury-les-Amiens, France, Tombe 589
Lieutenant, Matricule 3066, Armée française, 154e Régiment d'Infanterie

Robert Clair Phillipson (30 Oct 1883 - 27 May 1918) Lijssenthoek Military Cemetery CWGC Cemetery/Memorial Boescheepseweg, Poperinge, Belgium  XXXI - A - 21
British born, naturalised Frenchman
Soldat de 2e Classe, 404e Régiment d'Infanterie

 

 

Jean Paul Alvernhe (25 Jan 1884 - 2 Feb 1918)
Soldat, 05641, 9e Bataillon, 2e Régiment de Tirailleurs Algériens, Détachement Français de Palestine et Syrie

Joseph Arditti (28 Jul 1895 - 21 Sep 1918)
Sous Lieutenant, Légion D'Orient

Jules Aubanel (6 Oct 1879 - 20 Apr 1918)
Soldat, 709, 115e Régiment d'Infanterie Territoriale, Détachement Français de Palestine et Syrie

Mohammed Ben Hadj Abdelkader Abbas (1872 - 17 Mar 1918)
Soldat de 2e Classe, 26072, 7e Bataillon, 1er Régiment de Tirailleurs Algériens

Haigaz Gabrielan (? - 4 Oct 1918)
Soldat, 2510. 1er Bataillon d'Infanterie, Légion d'Orient

[PaulC78]

Can you link to an example on FindMyPast?

To answer your questions as best I can:

1. The most obvious reasons would be French soldiers buried in British plots (like Renault, for example) or buried in the UK, though there are probably other reasons. This is from a pdf showing the various shapes of headstone used by CWGC:

I've only seen the second type myself, there is one at St Pancras Cemetery in London and several at Danygraig Cemetery in Swansea.

2. As I understand it, CWGC care for these graves on behalf of the French authorities. Whether or not non Commonwealth graves are listed on the CWGC website depends on them having permission from each particular country. Besides France, the following countries are not listed on CWGC: China, Denmark, Estonia, Ethiopia, Japan, Serbia, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, Yugoslavia.

[AOK4]

Hello,

This is the headstone for soldat Mauricet in Cologne Southern Cemetery.

Jan

 

[Keith_history_buff]

4 hours ago, AOK4 said:

Hello,

This is the headstone for soldat Mauricet in Cologne Southern Cemetery.

Jan

Thank you for the example of a French soldier commemorated by the CWGC in Germany.

[Keith_history_buff]

Paul, thanks for your reply.

8 hours ago, PaulC78 said:

Can you link to an example on FindMyPast?

The paradox is that the examples that were on FindMyPast are no more, hence why posting the examples of French WW1 fatalities commemorated by the CWGC that I was aware of.

  

8 hours ago, PaulC78 said:

1.  ..... This is from a pdf showing the various shapes of headstone used by CWGC:

I've only seen the second type myself, there is one at St Pancras Cemetery in London and several at Danygraig Cemetery in Swansea.

I was unaware of these two different formats, thanks for sharing.

  

11 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

The two questions that I have are

1. What....?
2. Why is it that although these gravestones were put there by CWGC, they no longer appear in the database search results? It is now the case that the French government is responsible for the upkeep of those graves, hence it is no longer listed by CWGC?

  

8 hours ago, PaulC78 said:

2. As I understand it, CWGC care for these graves on behalf of the French authorities. Whether or not non Commonwealth graves are listed on the CWGC website depends on them having permission from each particular country. Besides France, the following countries are not listed on CWGC: China, Denmark, Estonia, Ethiopia, Japan, Serbia, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, Yugoslavia.

 

Thank you.

[Poppy Mercier]

13 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

I am aware of the following soldiers of the Armée française commemorated by the CWGC

interpreter Louis Eugène RENAULT of the French Army (10 Aug 1871 - 4 June 1916) 
Grave 8.A.20
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/44043818/louis-eugene-renault

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/4429-foreign-war-graves-in-cwgc-care/page/2/#comment-2698828

Louis Jules Jean Baptiste Quilico (11 Oct 1880 - 24 Aug 1914) Audregnies, Elouges, Hainaut, Belgium
Maréchal des Logis, 1518, 6ème Régiment des chasseurs à cheval
Attached to 9th Queen's Royal Lancers

Antoine Pallot (2 Feb 1884 - 18 May 1918)
Sergent, 019384, 42e Régiment d'Infanterie

Pierre Lavieille (4 Dec 1881 - 8 Oct 1915) Died of wounds Habarcq, Arras, France
Soldat de 2e Classe, 369, 63e Régiment d'Infanterie

Rene Charles Marie Pierre Gardeur (15 May 1882 - 13 May 1918) Nécropole Nationale Saint-Pierre CWGC Cemetery/Memorial Dury-les-Amiens, France, Tombe 589
Lieutenant, Matricule 3066, Armée française, 154e Régiment d'Infanterie

Robert Clair Phillipson (30 Oct 1883 - 27 May 1918) Lijssenthoek Military Cemetery CWGC Cemetery/Memorial Boescheepseweg, Poperinge, Belgium  XXXI - A - 21
British born, naturalised Frenchman
Soldat de 2e Classe, 404e Régiment d'Infanterie

 

 

Jean Paul Alvernhe (25 Jan 1884 - 2 Feb 1918)
Soldat, 05641, 9e Bataillon, 2e Régiment de Tirailleurs Algériens, Détachement Français de Palestine et Syrie

Joseph Arditti (28 Jul 1895 - 21 Sep 1918)
Sous Lieutenant, Légion D'Orient

Jules Aubanel (6 Oct 1879 - 20 Apr 1918)
Soldat, 709, 115e Régiment d'Infanterie Territoriale, Détachement Français de Palestine et Syrie

Mohammed Ben Hadj Abdelkader Abbas (1872 - 17 Mar 1918)
Soldat de 2e Classe, 26072, 7e Bataillon, 1er Régiment de Tirailleurs Algériens

Haigaz Gabrielan (? - 4 Oct 1918)
Soldat, 2510. 1er Bataillon d'Infanterie, Légion d'Orient

I get the feeling in the case of the interpreter it’s because of his temporary attachment to the British army. I’ve also seen IWGC/CWGC headstones (standard type) for French & Belgian civilians buried in CWGC cemeteries. One of these weird mysteries I don’t think we’ll ever know the answer to!

[Michelle Young]

Louis Quillico

 

[AOK4]

1 minute ago, Michelle Young said:

Louis Quillico

 

 

The British special memorials indicate this is a joint grave (mass grave), made by the Germans. So, the French soldier couldn't be recovered after the war. This is also clear from the CWGC document:

 

Quilico was an interpreter: https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2724099/6/2/

Jan

 

[Keith_history_buff]

Many thanks for the image, Michelle, of the grave of Louis Jules Jean Baptiste Quilico, Attached to 9th Queen's Royal Lancers. I guess one simple answer to my first question is that he was attached to a British unit, and there were no substantial French fatalities in the area? Had there been, then his remains would have been transferred nearby.

The link to the CWGC document was not working just now, but normal service has been resumed. Document courtesy CWGC, for the purpose of research.

[Keith_history_buff]

Thanks for the ICRC link, which was also problematic. I did wonder if this "sergeant of horse" was performing some kind of interpreter activities whilst on attachment, rather than being "lost".

Image courtesy ICRC, for research purposes.
 

[AOK4]

16 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Many thanks for the image, Michelle, of the grave of Louis Jules Jean Baptiste Quilico, Attached to 9th Queen's Royal Lancers. I guess one simple answer to my first question is that he was attached to a British unit, and there were no substantial French fatalities in the area? Had there been, then his remains would have been transferred nearby.

 

Hello,

No, I explained it. Mass, joint or row graves were not to be disturbed to go and find one particular soldier. Anyway, as the Germans had buried these men, uniforms might have been removed anyway.

No other French cemeteries in the area was no excuse for the French to exhume and rebury French casualties. Families had the right post-war to demand the body of their relative to be exhumed and either be brought "home" to be buried or to be reburied in a French cemetery of their choice (and this right was also granted to people from Alsace-Lorraine in case they had accepted to be French, this is why some German soldiers are buried in French military cemeteries under a French headstone and with inscription "mort pour la France").

Jan

[AOK4]

16 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Thanks for the ICRC link, which was also problematic. I did wonder if this "sergeant of horse" was performing some kind of interpreter activities whilst on attachment, rather than being "lost".
 

He was "missing in action" as there was no official confirmation of his death. This is a document from during the war and there was no official confirmation of his death. None of the men in the mass grave seem to have been identified during the war (the CWGC document also mentions that there was just a cross with the number of dead and no names, the names were only added post war).

Jan

[Keith_history_buff]

1 hour ago, Michelle Young said:

Louis Quillico

 

  

14 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

Hello,

No, I explained it. Mass, joint or row graves were not to be disturbed to go and find one particular soldier. Anyway, as the Germans had buried these men, uniforms might have been removed anyway.

No other French cemeteries in the area was no excuse for the French to exhume and rebury French casualties. Families had the right post-war to demand the body of their relative to be exhumed and either be brought "home" to be buried or to be reburied in a French cemetery of their choice (and this right was also granted to people from Alsace-Lorraine in case they had accepted to be French, this is why some German soldiers are buried in French military cemeteries under a French headstone and with inscription "mort pour la France").

Jan

https://www.tracesofwar.com/sights/42668/Commonwealth-War-Graves-Elouges.htm

This is now clear to me. Thank you both.

[PaulC78]

This is the grave of Joseph Lemaitre at St Pancras Cemetery. He is buried within a CWGC war graves plot, although I can't find him in their Grave Registration Reports for this cemetery. The ones I've seen at Swansea are in the same style,

[Keith_history_buff]

There is an entry in the England & Wales GRO death index for Joseph Lemaitre.

First name(s)    Joseph M
Last name    Le Maitre
Sex    Male
Birth year    1884
Age    33
Death quarter    4
Death year    1917
District    St. Giles
County    London
Volume    1B
Page    578
Country    England
Record set    England & Wales Deaths 1837-2007
© Findmypast

He was a merchant mariner aboard the three masted barque AMIRAL DE CORNULIER

Re: AMIRAL DE CORNULIER Trois-mâts barque 

Presumably he was taken ill whilst at the Port of London, and died. Had he been British, he would not be commemorated on Tower Hill. Although the plaque states <<mort pour la France>> he is not recorded on neither the memoiredeshommes site, nor the memorialgenweb site.

I have seen the same style of steel plaque for a fellow seafarer (Marine marchande) who died on 11 November 1918 at Port Talbot
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1609379815967794/permalink/2271688449736924/

LE BIAN Pierre
Matelot <Gladiateur>

Holy Cross Chapel of Ease
Port Talbot
Glamorgan

[Keith_history_buff]

In contrast to this, Marcel Léon Alfred BELLIN was wounded during the Battle of the Yser and evacuated to England! This fusilier marin died of his wounds in Woolwich.  on 17 October 1914. It appears he was interred in an unmarked (pauper?) grave.   

This is in contrast with thirty or so Belgian fatalities, whose details are recorded by the CWGC.

First name(s) : MARCEL
Last name : BEULLIN
Gender : Male
Birth year : 1890
Age : 24
Death quarter : 4
Death year : 1914
[Registration] District : Woolwich
County : London
Volume : 1D
Page : 1326

No luck with the following, and trying to locate his grave.
http://www.deceasedonline.com/emails/email_20121018_1.html