Hospitals and cemeteries

[RogerWight]

Hi all,

I am researching a soldier who died of gun shot wounds in october 1918.

I have name, number, battalion, regiment, CWGC info, but no service record.

He is buried and remembered in a military cemetery in England.

So i pressume he died in hospital in England.

My question is - Would he have been buried at nearest cemetery to the hospital he would have been in, or could he have died in hospital further away ?

At the front, most were buried in cemeteries next to or close to the ccs or hospital they died in.

I hope someone can help me with this.

Thanks Roger

[Matlock1418]

43 minutes ago, RogerWight said:

He is buried and remembered in a military cemetery in England.

So i pressume he died in hospital in England.

My question is - Would he have been buried at nearest cemetery to the hospital he would have been in, or could he have died in hospital further away ?

It may depend on where he died and where he/his NoK lived?

Dying 'At Home' could mean anywhere in the UK or literally at home in the UK.

The options offered were:

     a] burial at the Nation's expense/full military funeral, grave, headstone and all - typically at the nearest cemetery receiving military burials which could be far from [or near] his/NoK's home.  This also offered maintenance of grave and headstone in perpetuity by I/CWGC.

     b] rail transport of the body back to the nearest railway station to his NoK's address [providing he had previously been resident there] and then the NoK had to pick up all the further costs as a private burial - typically in a civilan cemetery in that locale.

Many NoK chose option a] on financial grounds even though it meant the grave was far from their home  ... or they may just have been 'lucky' that he died in or near to their home and got that all-paid option near home. 

Some families chose option b] but probably more likely for the more affluent [as also frequently indicated by a more elaborate grave memorial in a civilian cemetery/graveyard].  Sadly they lost out on maintenance of a private grave and memorial in perpetuity [Though nowadays a 'replacement'/Commission headstone is a possibility - with maintenance of the headstone alone - but not always easy/quick to arrange].

If you are prepared to offer the man's details then members might be able to research further/offer information - always worth looking out for for more details in a local newspaper(s) as they may give a report(s) of circumstances & location of death and a funeral.

M

Edited 27 September by Matlock1418
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[RogerWight]

Hi Matlock, thank you.

Yes, many possibilities, also don't know how long before his death he was wounded, i was pressuming it was relatively close and i don't know why i was.

The soldier in question is Pte Sydney Abel Palmer, SD/2397 Royal Sussex Reg.  Served in all 3 southdowns regs then into 7th Btn Royal Sussex Reg.

Died of wounds 2/10/1918. Buried Brookwood Military Cemetery.  NoK in Godalming, so not far from cemetery.

Thanks Roger

 

[alf mcm]

Roger,

  Since Sydney died in England you should be able to get a copy of his death certificate from G.R.O. There are relatively cheap versions which are available rather than a more expensive official copy. The certificate may state for how long he had been wounded, and should also give his usual home address and if he was married.

  He is mentioned in a weekly casualty list dated 22nd October 1918, about 3 weeks after he died!  https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-viewer?issue=BL%2F0001953%2F19181022&page=46&article=171&stringtohighlight=palmer+2397

Regards,

Alf McM

[RussT]

His Soldiers' Effects Record tells us he died of wounds at "Stamford St, SE", which should be taken to mean the King George Military Hospital Stamford Street London.

https://www.qaranc.co.uk/King-George-Military-Hospital-Stamford-Street-London.php#:~:text=The King George Military Hospital,in the First World War ).

Russ

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, RogerWight said:

Pte Sydney Abel Palmer, SD/2397 Royal Sussex Reg.  Served in all 3 southdowns regs then into 7th Btn Royal Sussex Reg.

Died of wounds 2/10/1918. Buried Brookwood Military Cemetery.  NoK in Godalming, so not far from cemetery.

CWGC https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/398704/sydney-abel-palmer - Foster son of E. Clissold, of 24, Croft Rd., Godalming, Surrey.

WFA/Fold3 MoP pension records offer E, Clissold, Mother, claimed a dependant's pension - Refusal, 2.7.19.  At that date under Articles 21 and/or 22 of the 1918 RW a dependant had to be wholly or partly incapable of self-support from age or infirmity and be in pecuniary need - typically this relationship was through evidence of prior dependance such as payment of pre-war/service monies or through paid Separation Allowance.  It seems he was 21 at death so ironically under Art. 22 of the 1919 RW the prerequisites were dropped if a soldier was under 26 at date of enlistment and perhaps a pension could have been claimed.  Could be she didn't know and if on a modest income she might have considered Brookwood sufficiently close to Godalming so as to consider it of significant benefit to go through the military burial route in 1918 ???

32 minutes ago, alf mcm said:

Since Sydney died in England you should be able to get a copy of his death certificate from G.R.O. There are relatively cheap versions which are available rather than a more expensive official copy. The certificate may state for how long he had been wounded, and should also give his usual home address and if he was married.

Indeed, £3 for a digital imge/copy of the entry from GRO

PALMER, SYDNEY  ABEL	21
GRO Reference: 1918  D Quarter in LAMBETH  Volume 01D  Page 437

30 minutes ago, RussT said:

His Soldiers' Effects Record tells us he died of wounds at "Stamford St, SE", which should be taken to mean the King George Military Hospital Stamford Street London.

Those details, Lambeth and KG MH, would nicely suit burial at Brookwood.

CWGC report in the history of the cemetery:  In 1917, an area of land in Brookwood Cemetery (The London Necropolis) was set aside for the burial of men and women of the forces of the Commonwealth and Americans, who had died, many of battle wounds, in the London district.

M

Edited 27 September by Matlock1418
typo

[RogerWight]

Alf McM, Russ & Matlock  thank you.

Alf McM

The death certificate might be helpful, certainly worth a try. Could be £3 (thanks Matlock) well spent.

 

Russ

I saw the "Stamford St SE" and found to be Lambeth, but hadn't looked into any further. I now have a hospital to start researching.

I was looking at the list of hospitals for Surrey on "long long trail" as the cemetery is in Surrey, which bought me to my question.

 

Matlock

I wondered if there was a problem with Mrs Clissold being his foster mother and not biological.

Pension refusal and medals returned. Medals reissued in 1923.

I have looked into the cemetery briefly, didn't pick up on the "deaths in London district".  That certainly adds up then.

 

Sydney was my grandmothers boyfriend (before she was with my grandfather) around the war years. I don't know how long the relationship lasted.

I have postcards from him to her, one in uniform, but none have postal stamps or dates written on.

Thanks again

Roger

 

 

 

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, RogerWight said:

I wondered if there was a problem with Mrs Clissold being his foster mother and not biological.

Under the 1918 Royal Warrant Art. 24 definitions:

(4) "Parent" includes a grandparent or other person who has been in place of a parent to a soldier, and who has wholly supported him for not less than one year at sometime before the commencement of war.

(5) "Dependant" means any person (other than a widow or child as defined above) who is found as a fact to have been wholly or partially dependant upon a soldier for a reasonable period immediately before the commencement of the war, or before enlistment if subsequent to the commencement of the war, and in the case of a deceased soldier up to the death of the soldier unless he shall have been prevented from contributing by circumstances beyond his control.  "Dependent" means so dependent as aforesaid.

Foster-parents, Step-parents and Guardians could potentially be entitled to a Dependant's pension under Art. 21 or 22 if there was dependency etc. - lack of a biological connection need not be an impediment.

As mentioned above, 1918 RW  Art. 22 makes reference to payment or entitlement to a Separation Allowance as a means of showing dependency but the 1919 RW removed this and other clauses in favour of a soldier simply being under 26 years.

Unfortunately we no longer have a big book of contemporary MoP rules & guidlines etc. [assuming one ever existed - as one might rather expect there would have been]  So I am instead 'interpretting' as best I can.

1 hour ago, RogerWight said:

Medals reissued in 1923

Medals would issued by MO in accordance with NoK rules and do not necessarily require biological association [though such persons would have been/still are at the bottom of the list of descending priority] - so they were convinced by somebody to reissue them ... Mrs E Glissold (Foster Mother) is listed on the back of MIC indicating it is to her that they were reissued.

My opinion so far is that I am minded to think that his Foster Mother, Mrs. E Glissold, would have been entitled to a dependant's pension but whether one was ever awarded is uncertain [so far?].

M

Edited 28 September by Matlock1418

[RogerWight]

Thank you Matlock.

Yes you would say she was entitled to the pension for sure.

The medal situation, i may try to investigate more, at a later date.

Thanks again

Roger

[Matlock1418]

On 28/09/2024 at 10:30, RogerWight said:

I have postcards from him to her, one in uniform,

That is good news.  I wonder if you could share with GWF please - it's always good to be able to put a face to a name.

In hope ...

M

[RogerWight]

No problem at all

Pte Sydney Abel Palmer SD/2397

Cheers Roger

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, RogerWight said:

Pte Sydney Abel Palmer SD/2397

Cheers Roger

Thank you so much. Good to have such a photo. 

Sadly I have a big blank where I would hope to have similar.  100+ years on and I don't think I'm very likely to find one of a single man.  But never say never!

M