identification of the regiment and battalion with this glengarry

[Valentin4079]

Good morning,

I am a French person passionate about the Great War and I would like to acquire a piece of history with the purchase of a glengarry. I would like to express all my gratitude and immense respect to all the Commonwealth soldiers who came to help France during the Great War.
The glengarry which is attached to this message is the one that I wish to acquire but I do not have much information on it, which is why I am counting on this forum filled with enthusiasts of the great war like me to have answers. 
I only know that he is from the KOSBs regiment. 
I can't find much information about this regiment.
I also learned that the piece of fabric just behind the badge could indicate the battalion to which the soldier belonged but I could not identify this battalion. I also want to know if this glengarry belonged to a private or an officer. Finally, I would like to know if you think the badge is original or not. 
Thank you for the answers you will give me, cordially.

[FROGSMILE]

13 hours ago, Valentin4079 said:

Good morning,

I am a French person passionate about the Great War and I would like to acquire a piece of history with the purchase of a glengarry. I would like to express all my gratitude and immense respect to all the Commonwealth soldiers who came to help France during the Great War.
The glengarry which is attached to this message is the one that I wish to acquire but I do not have much information on it, which is why I am counting on this forum filled with enthusiasts of the great war like me to have answers. 
I only know that he is from the KOSBs regiment. 
I can't find much information about this regiment.
I also learned that the piece of fabric just behind the badge could indicate the battalion to which the soldier belonged but I could not identify this battalion. I also want to know if this glengarry belonged to a private or an officer. Finally, I would like to know if you think the badge is original or not. 
Thank you for the answers you will give me, cordially.  

The design of glengarry cap is that for a soldier below the rank of officer in the regiment the King’s Own Scottish Borderers.  The badge has a Tudor crown, also often described as a King’s crown, and so typical for both the WW1 and WW2 periods.  Behind the badge is a square of Leslie tartan which would be correct for a khaki bonnet during a later period, but would not ordinarily appear on a glengarry cap.  Instead there should be a black silken rosette (aka cockade) as you can see in the photos below.

The badge and glengarry look authentic and in a condition commensurate with age, but there was little difference in appearance between a WW1 era cap, and a WW2 era cap, so unless the soldiers identity, or a date of issue is marked inside, and can be traced, it will be virtually impossible to be definitive about the age of the cap.  Nevertheless, it would be a very good representative example for you to add to your collection.

images via websearch.

Edited 4 October by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

18 hours ago, Valentin4079 said:

Good morning,

I am a French person passionate about the Great War and I would like to acquire a piece of history with the purchase of a glengarry. I would like to express all my gratitude and immense respect to all the Commonwealth soldiers who came to help France during the Great War.
The glengarry which is attached to this message is the one that I wish to acquire but I do not have much information on it, which is why I am counting on this forum filled with enthusiasts of the great war like me to have answers. 
I only know that he is from the KOSBs regiment. 
I can't find much information about this regiment.
I also learned that the piece of fabric just behind the badge could indicate the battalion to which the soldier belonged but I could not identify this battalion. I also want to know if this glengarry belonged to a private or an officer. Finally, I would like to know if you think the badge is original or not. 
Thank you for the answers you will give me, cordially.

The leather edging at the bottom of the glengarry indicates that this bonnet was manufactured between 1904 and 1915. Toward the end of this period, many glengarries were fabricated without the rosette badge backing because of wartime exigencies. Hence, some soldiers then substituted a patch of their regimental tartan as a badge backing. This did not appear to be a common occurrence, but it was not rare either. See example in the image below.

So, I would say that there is a high likelihood that this is a genuine WW1 period glengarry.

 

(Image source: History of the Queen's Own Highlanders (Seaforth and Camerons) by Lt. Col. (ret) Angus Fairrie)

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, gordon92 said:

This did not appear to be a common occurrence, but it was not rare either.

I disagree with this aspect because the gradual adoption of tartan patches was much associated with the Tam-o-Shanter and the latter half of the war and not every regiment favoured them either.  Glengarries were increasingly less often seen in the line in that second half of the war and there was therefore little need for tartan patches on a headdress not intended for them.  What went on in Canada was a different matter, as it seems to have been often the case that enthusiasm out-vied convention.  There were also some differences on the home front in Great Britain and Ireland, but not to the extent that there was any common or frequent use of tartan patches on glengarries.

I would be interested at this point to obtain the views of forum member @Glengarry1950 as to the commonality of this practice in specifically the King’s Own Scottish Borderers.  It’s certainly not in my experience been something that I would ever describe as “not uncommon” based on the research of British Army uniforms and insignia that I’ve undertaken.  That does not include the Canadians however, who did all kinds of strange things when viewed through eyes of the then accepted homeland.  I would also like to see the photographic evidence necessary to underpin your assertion that it was “not uncommon”.

The leather band was common in WW1 and in WW2, although cloth binding had also entered use during the latter.  See WW2 image below courtesy regimental museum.

Edited 4 October by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

47 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I disagree with this aspect because the adoption of tartan patches was much associated with the Tam-o-Shanter and the latter half of the war.  Glengarries were increasingly less often seen in the line in that half of the war and there was therefore little need for tartan patches on a headdress not intended for them.  What went on in Canada was a different matter as it seems to have been often the case that enthusiasm outdid convention.  There were also some differences on the home front in Great Britain and Ireland, but not to the extent that there was any common and frequent use of tartan patches on glengarries.

I would be interested at this point to obtain the views of forum member @Glengarry1950 as to the commonality of this practice in the King’s Own Scottish Borderers.  It’s certainly not in my experience been something that I would ever describe as “not uncommon” based on the research of British Army uniforms and insignia that I’ve undertaken.  That does not include the Canadians however, who did all kinds of strange things when viewed through eyes of the then accepted homeland.  I would also like to see the photographic evidence necessary to underpin your assertion that it was “not uncommon”.

The leather band was common in WW1 and in WW2, although cloth binding had also entered use during the latter.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this matter as we have before. We had this same discussion in October 2020.

 

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

We will just have to agree to disagree on this matter as we have before. We had this same discussion in October 2020.

 

Indeed and I had not forgotten.  But this time the query was specifically in relation to the King’s Own Scottish Borderers from a gentleman for whom English is not his first language.  I confined my answer to his question about that regiment accordingly.

Its also important to make clear that even by 1918 not all of the Scottish infantry regiments had adopted tartan patches on their khaki headwear, let alone their glengarries.  It was very far from a universal practice.  It is something that only gained widespread acceptance across Highland and Lowland regiments alike between the two world wars.

Edited 4 October by FROGSMILE

[Glengarry1950]

Hi Frogsmile,

I will answer the French gentleman's question, (Valentin4079, firstly the Glengarry Cap can either be an Officers or Other Ranks (OR's) as there was little distinction between the two from 1904 until after WW1 other than the quality of the material uses for the headband and the rosette. The Cap Badge illustrated is an OR's Pattern Cap Badge 1901 until 1954, however, in the King's Own Scottish Borderers there is no restriction in an OR wearing and Officers Pattern Cap Badge on any issue headdress, because as a family Regiment badges were handed down through families, and there are many soldiers and officers wearing past family members cap badge, and did so right up until we were murdered by Cameron in 2006.

On the Tartan Patch which is wrongly refer as such, the patch originates from the 'Ninth Scottish Division' in WW1, as a means to identify different regiments within the division, also different Battalions from the same regiment in the division, as Regimental Cap badges were not worn in the headdress for example the TOS Tam O'Shanter, therefore a patch was used to replace the badge and placed in the badges location and the official name it is known as a 'Battle Patch'. Now the battle patch illustrated on the Glengarry is the Leslie Tartan which was adopted by the 4th/5th Battalion KOSB with the white line running vertical and the red running horizontal, for interest the 6th Bn KOSB of the 9th Division used a piece of material that was readily available, a piece of Khaki i.e. a sand bag.

Finally, the cap badge, it appears to be a good sticking with some wear, I would be happy to say genuine, there were many manufacturers during WW1 producing KOSB cap badges with very sleight differences in the dies, fakes or restrikes are distinguishable to the trained eye.   

PS. There is every possibility that the Glengarry was worn by and Officer or SNCO of the 4th/5th Battalion KOSB in WW1 as they both wore glengarries in and out of the line, taking the badge out would show him with the battle patch visible, as the 4th/5th Bn KOSB.

Cheers

Hiram    

      

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, Glengarry1950 said:

Hi Frogsmile,

I will answer the French gentleman's question, (Valentin4079, firstly the Glengarry Cap can either be an Officers or Other Ranks (OR's) as there was little distinction between the two from 1904 until after WW1 other than the quality of the material uses for the headband and the rosette. The Cap Badge illustrated is an OR's Pattern Cap Badge 1901 until 1954, however, in the King's Own Scottish Borderers there is no restriction in an OR wearing and Officers Pattern Cap Badge on any issue headdress, because as a family Regiment badges were handed down through families, and there are many soldiers and officers wearing past family members cap badge, and did so right up until we were murdered by Cameron in 2006.

On the Tartan Patch which is wrongly refer as such, the patch originates from the 'Ninth Scottish Division' in WW1, as a means to identify different regiments within the division, also different Battalions from the same regiment in the division, as Regimental Cap badges were not worn in the headdress for example the TOS Tam O'Shanter, therefore a patch was used to replace the badge and placed in the badges location and the official name it is known as a 'Battle Patch'. Now the battle patch illustrated on the Glengarry is the Leslie Tartan which was adopted by the 4th/5th Battalion KOSB with the white line running vertical and the red running horizontal, for interest the 6th Bn KOSB of the 9th Division used a piece of material that was readily available, a piece of Khaki i.e. a sand bag.

Finally, the cap badge, it appears to be a good sticking with some wear, I would be happy to say genuine, there were many manufacturers during WW1 producing KOSB cap badges with very sleight differences in the dies, fakes or restrikes are distinguishable to the trained eye.   

PS. There is every possibility that the Glengarry was worn by and Officer or SNCO of the 4th/5th Battalion KOSB in WW1 as they both wore glengarries in and out of the line, taking the badge out would show him with the battle patch visible, as the 4th/5th Bn KOSB.

Cheers

Hiram    

      

Thank you for responding Hiram.  It’s interesting to learn a little about 4/5th KOSB.

[battle of loos]

good evening,

here oi my item to the KOSB :

  

michel

[4thGordons]

Here is a video compilation of photographs from a collection I own of the 1/4th KOSB it shows lots of glengarries similar to yours

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

Just to be clear in the context of this subject, whilst there is no doubt that a few Scottish units wore a tartan patch on their glengarry caps, both a sense of scale, and English language semantics are important here.  I cannot recall how many in total battalions were raised by Scottish infantry regiments during WW1 (it was a lot), but only a relatively tiny proportion are recorded as wearing such an arrangement on their headdress.  It was thus neither, common, nor very widespread.

Edited 4 October by FROGSMILE

[mark holden]

I add some examples of Glengarries with rosettes and ‘battle patches’

The first to Cpl William Pottie 1/5RS (QER) the second to Private Arthur Borrowman 8th A&SH.

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, mark holden said:

I add some examples of Glengarries with rosettes and ‘battle patches’

The first to Cpl William Pottie 1/5RS (QER) the second to Private Arthur Borrowman 8th A&SH.

Thank you Mark, it’s very interesting to see the A&SH example especially, as if one were not familiar with the colouration of government tartan it would barely be possible to discern that there was such a patch behind the badge at all.  It shows how the fashion for fraying could be quite pervasive and spanning tartan and cockade.

Edited 6 October by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

1 hour ago, mark holden said:

I add some examples of Glengarries with rosettes and ‘battle patches’

The first to Cpl William Pottie 1/5RS (QER) the second to Private Arthur Borrowman 8th A&SH.

Excellent examples, Mark. Do you own these items?

[mark holden]

55 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

Excellent examples, Mark. Do you own these items?

I do and the ToS to each man.

[gordon92]

12 minutes ago, mark holden said:

I do and the ToS to each man.

If you are inclined to post them, I would interested in seeing additional photos including those of the ToSs.

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

If you are inclined to post them, I would interested in seeing additional photos including those of the ToSs.

Perhaps it could be added to an existing thread on the ToS ?  I recall one where the difference between a Balmoral and a ToS was discussed.

Edited 6 October by FROGSMILE

[mark holden]

I have found a previous post where I have posted Arthur Borrowman’s ToS but despite my best but inept efforts I haven’t successfully copied it. So repeated here are the photos 

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, mark holden said:

I have found a previous post where I have posted Arthur Borrowman’s ToS but despite my best but inept efforts I haven’t successfully copied it. So repeated here are the photos 

Here is the thread whose subject is the Tam-o-Shanter and their tartan patches, as opposed to the attempted identification of a glengarry cap:

 

Edited 7 October by FROGSMILE

[mark holden]

Frogsmile 

thanks for coming to the rescue.

Mark

[FROGSMILE]

19 minutes ago, mark holden said:

Frogsmile 

thanks for coming to the rescue.

Mark

If you wish to then you can post the photos in that thread and then ‘hide’ the post here. That way the relevant images would all be found together via a web or forum search.

Edited 7 October by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

5 hours ago, mark holden said:

I have found a previous post where I have posted Arthur Borrowman’s ToS but despite my best but inept efforts I haven’t successfully copied it. So repeated here are the photos 

Very nice. I believe the 8th Argylls were the only A&SH battalion who used the collar badge in the ToS. My surmise is that the practice had its origin in the Boer War when many Argylls attached a collar badge to their sun helmets and slouch hats.

[battle of loos]

Good evening,

In view of the superb photos of the A&SH, did the 11th Battalion have a particularity at the level of the Cap Badge, title for the year 1915.
for the Battle of Loos on 25 September 1915, he wore the Glengarry or the Tam o' Shanter?

here one title, cap badge, button officier on SMLE disc find on Hill 70

thank's

michel

[Valentin4079]

Hello everyone,

First of all, thank you everyone for providing me with as much information about Glengarry as I have published. You don't necessarily all agree but you all participated in this debate with so much passion, I felt it while reading you and it was such a pleasure to do so. Since the publication of my first article, I have come across several Glengarrys from the First World War put up for sale by enthusiasts of militarism. But obviously they are not necessarily all complete due to their age and the use they have had over time. For some they lack the black rosette, for others the black tails. I am posting a few photos to illustrate my points. Do you know where I could find this famous rosette or these famous black tails, all obviously original so that my Glengarry is complete? Thank you all very much, cordially.

[mark holden]

21 minutes ago, Valentin4079 said:

Hello everyone,

First of all, thank you everyone for providing me with as much information about Glengarry as I have published. You don't necessarily all agree but you all participated in this debate with so much passion, I felt it while reading you and it was such a pleasure to do so. Since the publication of my first article, I have come across several Glengarrys from the First World War put up for sale by enthusiasts of militarism. But obviously they are not necessarily all complete due to their age and the use they have had over time. For some they lack the black rosette, for others the black tails. I am posting a few photos to illustrate my points. Do you know where I could find this famous rosette or these famous black tails, all obviously original so that my Glengarry is complete? Thank you all very much, cordially.

My advice is to leave your Glengarry as you found it. The tails were often removed or simply came off through use. The rosette you may find and would not be an invasive restoration