identification of the regiment and battalion with this glengarry

[gordon92]

4 minutes ago, mark holden said:

My advice is to leave your Glengarry as you found it. The tails were often removed or simply came off through use. The rosette you may find and would not be an invasive restoration 

I would second this advice about refraining from any restoration. These are historical objects becoming more scarce as time passes, and I think it is important that the integrity if these items be maintained. Further, should you ever sell the glengarry in the future, its value would be diminished should you modify the bonnet. The modifications would be apparent to any potential buyer who is experienced and alert.

[Valentin4079]

Could a Glengarry dated 1893 for the Boer War also have been worn for the First World War? Or were the Glengarrys of the First World War made for example 5 years before the start of it? And another question torments me, were the officers (lieutenant or captain I'm talking about and not general obviously) in the trenches with their soldiers or were they at the rear? THANKS.

[mark holden]

1 minute ago, Valentin4079 said:

Could a Glengarry dated 1893 for the Boer War also have been worn for the First World War? Or were the Glengarrys of the First World War made for example 5 years before the start of it? And another question torments me, were the officers (lieutenant or captain I'm talking about and not general obviously) in the trenches with their soldiers or were they at the rear? THANKS.

Captains/Majors and Lieutenant/ 2 Lieutenant always in the first line depending on circumstances Lt Cols also. So they were not in the rear! Casualties amongst General officers also undermine the myth they were drinking wine and eating well far from the action. 

[gordon92]

On 07/10/2024 at 16:02, battle of loos said:

Good evening,

In view of the superb photos of the A&SH, did the 11th Battalion have a particularity at the level of the Cap Badge, title for the year 1915.
for the Battle of Loos on 25 September 1915, he wore the Glengarry or the Tam o' Shanter?

here one title, cap badge, button officier on SMLE disc find on Hill 70

thank's

michel

Very nice Argyll items, Michel.

Regarding your question, the headgear worn by Scottish battalions in September 1915 would have been predominantly Tam O'Shanters and Balmorals. These bonnets started to replace the glengarry for wear at the front in May 1915.  However, because of lags in manufacturing and supply, a few soldiers could still be wearing the glengarry even in September.  It was not that unusual for soldiers from the same unit to have been wearing different types of head gear as seen in the photo below of a group of 2nd Bn Seaforth Highlanders.

[Stereoview Paul]

40 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

Very nice Argyll items, Michel.

Regarding your question, the headgear worn by Scottish battalions in September 1915 would have been predominantly Tam O'Shanters and Balmorals. These bonnets started to replace the glengarry for wear at the front in May 1915.  However, because of lags in manufacturing and supply, a few soldiers could still be wearing the glengarry even in September.  It was not that unusual for soldiers from the same unit to have been wearing different types of head gear as seen in the photo below of a group of 2nd Bn Seaforth Highlanders.

Photo taken on the 4th August 1915

[gordon92]

3 minutes ago, Stereoview Paul said:

Photo taken on the 4th August 1915

Many thanks for dating the photo precisely. I only had mid-1915 previously.

[battle of loos]

4 hours ago, Valentin4079 said:

Hello everyone,

First of all, thank you everyone for providing me with as much information about Glengarry as I have published. You don't necessarily all agree but you all participated in this debate with so much passion, I felt it while reading you and it was such a pleasure to do so. Since the publication of my first article, I have come across several Glengarrys from the First World War put up for sale by enthusiasts of militarism. But obviously they are not necessarily all complete due to their age and the use they have had over time. For some they lack the black rosette, for others the black tails. I am posting a few photos to illustrate my points. Do you know where I could find this famous rosette or these famous black tails, all obviously original so that my Glengarry is complete? Thank you all very much, cordially.

good evening,

the picture with the officier are taking in Arras.

regards

michel

[battle of loos]

1 hour ago, gordon92 said:

Very nice Argyll items, Michel.

Regarding your question, the headgear worn by Scottish battalions in September 1915 would have been predominantly Tam O'Shanters and Balmorals. These bonnets started to replace the glengarry for wear at the front in May 1915.  However, because of lags in manufacturing and supply, a few soldiers could still be wearing the glengarry even in September.  It was not that unusual for soldiers from the same unit to have been wearing different types of head gear as seen in the photo below of a group of 2nd Bn Seaforth Highlanders.

thank's for your answer with this very beautyfull picture.

michel

[Stereoview Paul]

To be fully accurate they are crossing 'Cow Bridge' at La Gorgue (someone else will have to work out the time from the shadows ).

[Stereoview Paul]

And going back again

[gordon92]

23 minutes ago, Stereoview Paul said:

To be fully accurate they are crossing 'Cow Bridge' at La Gorgue (someone else will have to work out the time from the shadows ).

 

11 minutes ago, Stereoview Paul said:

And going back again

Many thanks again, Paul, for setting the date and location of the scene.

[gordon92]

50 minutes ago, battle of loos said:

thank's for your answer with this very beautyfull picture.

michel

Pleased to have helped, Michel.

[Valentin4079]

Good Morning 

Could a Glengarry dated 1893 also have been worn for the First World War? Or were the Glengarrys of the First World War made for example 5 years before the start of it? 

I ask you this question because the most complete Glengarry I found was made in 1893.

Thank you 

 

[gordon92]

5 hours ago, Valentin4079 said:

Good Morning 

Could a Glengarry dated 1893 also have been worn for the First World War? Or were the Glengarrys of the First World War made for example 5 years before the start of it? 

I ask you this question because the most complete Glengarry I found was made in 1893.

Thank you 

 

It's possible but unlikely that a glengarry made in 1893 would survive until WW1; over 20+ years, normal wear and tear plus exposure to the weather would likely cause serious deterioration.

Glengarries with the leather calfskin headband began to be manufactured in 1905 for some regiments and 1908 for others. See the thread referenced below, 2nd post down. If I remember correctly, the patterns changed to cloth covered headbands around mid to late 1915.

 

[battle of loos]

Thank you for the information about the date of appearance of the fabric headbands on the Glengarry.

regards

michel

[Valentin4079]

Good morning,

Are the black tails behind authentic? 
Because I heard that the tails were made of black silk and not black fabric (like in the photos). Or maybe it was only the officers who had black silk tails. Thank you, have a good evening.

[6RRF]

Officers may certainly have gone for black silk, but lesser mortals had to settle for black petersham ribbon as shown in your pictures

[Valentin4079]

Ah so it's just a question of rank and not a question of era. Ordinary soldiers in 1914 had them in black Petersham ribbon and officers had them in silk.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Valentin4079 said:

Ah so it's just a question of rank and not a question of era. Ordinary soldiers in 1914 had them in black Petersham ribbon and officers had them in silk.

Yes that’s correct.  The officer purchased all his own uniform and even his pistol and sword, so he generally came from a social class that could afford the finer quality silk.  Conversely the enlisted soldier was equipped at the expense of the tax-payer, and so had to make do with more utilitarian quality clothing and insignia.

Edited 13 hours ago by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

3 hours ago, Valentin4079 said:

Ah so it's just a question of rank and not a question of era. Ordinary soldiers in 1914 had them in black Petersham ribbon and officers had them in silk.

 

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes that’s correct.  The officer purchased all his own uniform and even his pistol and sword, so he generally came from a social class that could afford the finer quality silk.  Conversely the enlisted soldier was equipped at the expense of the tax-payer, and so had to make do with more utilitarian quality clothing and insignia.

To elaborate further on officers' glengarries, displayed below are four examples from my collection.

As Frogsmile has explained, officers were generally of a social class that could afford finer things including silk accoutered glengarries.  The first glengarry, belonging to Maj (later Lt Col) Arthur HC Sutherland of 2nd Bn Black Watch, has a silk headband, silk tails, and no badge backing. The second example, from an unknown officer of the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders, has a silk headband and silk swallow tails as well, but it also has a large Highland knot as a badge backing. The latter glengarry is a rather elaborate headgear, perhaps, even leaning toward ornate.

Not all officers opted for silk. The third glengarry was originally owned by Capt (later Brigadier) Hector RH Greenfield of the 2nd Bn Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders. It consists of a brocade headband, Petersham ribbon tails, and a grosgrain rosette backing the badge. The third glengarry, from an unidentified officer of the Seaforth Highlanders, is more modest still.  It is configured with a fabric headband (can't tell if it's Petersham or grosgrain), Petersham ribbon tails, and a grosgrain rosette as a badge backing.

Another feature distinguishing officers' glengarries from those issued to other ranks during this era, was that officer glengarries tended to be a little bit higher at the peak of the crown. around a quarter of an inch or more; this shape varied by the individual tailor the officer employed.

[6RRF]

Excellently illustrated, thank you for displaying them 

[FROGSMILE]

In many cases an officer commissioned from the ranks, of whom there were proportionally more in wartime, often retained his issued headdress and added an officers’ pattern badge to it if they weren’t already a warrant officer, or some other headquarters staff sergeant and wearing the correct badge anyway.  It’s only really by examining the inside, and the bonnet/cap fittings outside, that you can ascertain whether it’s a cap made by a retail hatter, an officer’s outfitter, or Ordnance (War Office) issue.  There are many permutations.

Edited 11 hours ago by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

In many cases an officer commissioned from the ranks, of whom there were proportionally more in wartime, often retained his issued headdress and added an officers’ pattern badge to it if they weren’t already a warrant officer, or some other headquarters staff sergeant and wearing the correct badge anyway.  It’s only really by examining the inside, and the bonnet/cap fittings outside, that you can ascertain whether it’s a cap made by a retail hatter, an officer’s outfitter, or Ordnance (War Office) issue.  There are many permutations.

There is another aspect that I think is relevant to this discussion. This is exemplified by the pictured glengarry that I also have. It's owner was Lt Col John J. Davidson, CO of the 5th (Sutherland & Caithness) Battalion Seaforth Highlanders TF. It is fitted with a silver badge but without the expected feathers and has headband, tails, and rosette of Petersham ribbon. It was explained to me by the Regimental Museum that many officers of the 5th Seaforth, when in the field, used a badge without the feathers to be less conspicuous.  So, generalizing, I suspect that at least some officers possessed a field version glengarry of modest quality in addition to a higher quality glengarry that they wore when out of the line or on leave.

[FROGSMILE]

36 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

I suspect that at least some officers possessed a field version glengarry of modest quality in addition to a higher quality glengarry that they wore when out of the line or on leave.

Yes I’m fairly sure that kind of thing was a common aspect for periods and campaigns before and after WW1 too, and not just for 5th Seaforth, either.

Edited 6 hours ago by FROGSMILE