Uniform identification??

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, TK1967 said:

Perhaps most simple explanation he just didn’t wear Arm band and Uncle Sam for 17 pic and his ACC badge distorted?

There’s no doubt whatsoever about the insignia in the seated photos, which are each of them sufficiently distinct to discern the insignia, albeit not in perfect detail.  Nevertheless, I’m confident from the overall shapes and perspectives. The staff badge is an entirely different shape to the ACC badge.  Conversely, I cannot make out the slightest detail in your standing photos, the quality of which are appalling as I made clear to you at the start.  You’re attempting to compare chalk and cheese.

5 minutes ago, owen4256 said:

Worth bearing mind the Army Cyclist Corps was disbanded in April 1920 so unlikely that anyone would still be badged ACC in November 1920

That’s a very good point Owen.

Edited Sunday at 22:25 by FROGSMILE

[TK1967]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

There’s no doubt whatsoever about the insignia in the seated photos, which are each of them sufficiently distinct to discern the insignia, albeit not in perfect detail.  Nevertheless, I’m confident from the overall shapes and perspectives. The staff badge is an entirely different shape to the ACC badge.  Conversely, I cannot make out the slightest detail in your standing photos, the quality of which are appalling as I made clear to you at the start.  You’re attempting to compare chalk and cheese.

Understand - it’s just in standing hes a big guy, big jacket , staff band and similar shaped hat to sitting and 17. Both of those hes bigger too? I’m happy with rough agreement considering quality of standing pics!

[TK1967]

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

There’s no doubt whatsoever about the insignia in the seated photos, which are each of them sufficiently distinct to discern the insignia, albeit not in perfect detail.  Nevertheless, I’m confident from the overall shapes and perspectives. The staff badge is an entirely different shape to the ACC badge.  Conversely, I cannot make out the slightest detail in your standing photos, the quality of which are appalling as I made clear to you at the start.  You’re attempting to compare chalk and cheese.

That’s a very good point Owen.

Interesting- he arrived July 1920 sitting pic soon after but changed badge by 17. and Standing pics in Nov?

Admire all your dogged efforts!

[Bob Davies]

3 minutes ago, TK1967 said:

Perhaps most simple explanation he just didn’t wear Arm band and Uncle Sam for 17 pic and his ACC badge distorted?

No, the cap badges show a different shape, even with distortion.

We have to be aware of fitting what we want to see with fact.

@FROGSMILE quoted this sometime ago, I have to find it again.

That is where I was looking as you were all in the scrummage, the times I have been there tying to put my idea first!

Several posts have gone by before I had the chance to put this up ;-)

 

 

[TK1967]

1 minute ago, Bob Davies said:

No, the cap badges show a different shape, even with distortion.

We have to be aware of fitting what we want to see with fact.

@FROGSMILE quoted this sometime ago, I have to find it again.

That is where I was looking as you were all in the scrummage, the times I have been there tying to put my idea first!

Several posts have gone by before I had the chance to put this up ;-)

 

 

I think we’ve agreed he changed cap badge from July 1920 seated pic to the standing and 17 pics in Nov  1920- it doesn’t help that he’s still army listed as Cycling Corp 6 months later May 1921!

[TK1967]

2 minutes ago, TK1967 said:

I think we’ve agreed he changed cap badge from July 1920 seated pic to the standing and 17 pics in Nov  1920- it doesn’t help that he’s still army listed as Cycling Corp 6 months later May 1921!

Williams only ACC Officer at St Pol July 1920-May 1921 so that makes it easier.

[PRC]

35 minutes ago, TK1967 said:

They are distant pics zoomed I can’t improve but understand difficulty- it’s a DGRE event 

Personal opinion but zooming doesn't seem to be getting us any further forward, so perhaps seeing the individuals in the context of the original image might be more productive.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[Bob Davies]

3 minutes ago, TK1967 said:

I think we’ve agreed he changed cap badge from July 1920 seated pic to the standing and 17 pics in Nov  1920- it doesn’t help that he’s still army listed as Cycling Corp 6 months later May 1921!

I am turning in now, a look on ancestry/fold 3 tomorrow may show something?

Did anyone try a reverse picture search on any of these? 

Regards,

Bob.

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, TK1967 said:

Williams only ACC Officer at St Pol July 1920-May 1921 so that makes it easier.

I agree with Peter’s comment about consulting the original photo.

As an aside I’d like to learn William’s service history if possible as I want to know why he’s wearing ball buttons.  Knowing his original corps should tell us the answer.

Edited Sunday at 22:46 by FROGSMILE

[TK1967]

1 minute ago, Bob Davies said:

I am turning in now, a look on ancestry/fold 3 tomorrow may show something?

Did anyone try a reverse picture search on any of these? 

Regards,

Bob.

I never tried that - will look it up?! Thanks GN

[CorporalPunishment]

54 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Edit:  Yes Bob, I do think that he is the same (ACC) officer, i.e. No 17.

I agree, the same man, it's the cap that's the clincher for me as well as the other similarities. Just a change of insignia.     Pete.

[TK1967]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

I agree with Peter’s comment about the original photo.

As an aside I’d like to learn William’s service history if possible as I want to know why he’s wearing ball buttons.  Knowing his original corps should tell us the answer.

I haven’t looked before July 1920 when Williams arrived at St Pol- got him still there as Staff Capt May 1921.

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I agree, the same man, it's the cap that's the clincher for me as well as the other similarities. Just a change of insignia.     Pete.

Yes the same cap is very apparent I agree.  

[TK1967]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

Yes the same cap is very apparent I agree.  

Do you mean all pics are same man or just 17 and sitting pic?! 

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, TK1967 said:

I haven’t looked before July 1920 when Williams arrived at St Pol- got him still there as Staff Capt May 1921.

He is likely to be ex yeomanry as quite a number of their 2nd or 3rd line were converted to cyclists.  Each yeomanry regiment was styled as either dragoons, lancers or hussars.  The latter were the ones who favoured ball buttons.

Edited Sunday at 22:51 by FROGSMILE

[TK1967]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

He is likely to be ex yeomanry as quite a number of their 2nd or 3rd line were converted to cyclists.

Ok GN

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, TK1967 said:

Do you mean all pics are same man or just 17 and sitting pic?! 

The side-by-side photo posted by Peter (PRC) of him seated.  The same cap is apparent.  As is his shirt for that matter, but caps are especially individual, taking on a shape all of their own, as everyone has a habitual way of donning a headdress and you impose your own habits upon it.  Which hand and finger grip you use, etc.  As an officer it gets to the stage where you can see a SD cap on a mess foyer table and know whose it is from its particular shape. 

Edited Sunday at 22:57 by FROGSMILE

[TK1967]

Yes I’ve noticed! I find the standing pics the cap very similar though 

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, TK1967 said:

Yes I’ve noticed! I find the standing pics the cap very similar though 

I can only be amazed at your eyesight then…

[TK1967]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The side by side photo posted by Peter (PRC) of him seated.  The same cap is apparent.  As is his shirt for that matter, but caps are especially individual, taking on a shape all of their own, as everyone has a habitual way of donning a headdress and you impose your own habits upon it.  Which hand and finger grip you use, etc.  As an officer it gets to the stage where you can see a hat on a mess foyer table and know whose it is from its particular shape. 

 

Yes I’ve noticed! I find the standing pics the cap very similar though 

• O

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

I can only be amazed at your eyesight then…

If only I had better pics I wouldn’t be here!

[PRC]

11 hours ago, TK1967 said:

Lt Dewi A Williams Cyclist Corp

National Archive have Officers long papers catalogued for a Lieutenant Dewi James Williams, Army Cyclist Corps, which they link to the period 1914-1922. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1142763

Of course Dewi A. Williams may have been a different individual, one who continued to serve on further into the 1920's and so has records at the MoD.

No obvious Medal Index Card for a Dewi J. or Dewi A. Williams.

The December 1919 British Army Monthly List shows a D.J. Williams a Lieutenant in the Army Cyclists Corps with seniority from the 1st July 1917 - Column 1558f-g https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/109435049

There is no entry for a D.A.Williams in the index for that month. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/109455149

The July 1917 British Army Monthly List has a Second Lieutenant D.J. Williams, Army Cyclist Corps, who appears to have been commissioned with effect from the 1st September 1914, but his seniority in the Corps dates from 11th January 1915 - presumably when he transferred in to the Army Cyclist Corps. (Column 1558g). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/104024132

He seems to be remarkably elusive as far as the London Gazette is concerned, either directly or via The Times.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

National Archive have Officers long papers catalogued for a Lieutenant Dewi James Williams, Army Cyclist Corps, which they link to the period 1914-1922. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1142763

Of course Dewi A. Williams may have been a different individual, one who continued to serve on further into the 1920's and so has records at the MoD.

No obvious Medal Index Card for a Dewi J. or Dewi A. Williams.

The December 1919 British Army Monthly List shows a D.J. Williams a Lieutenant in the Army Cyclists Corps with seniority from the 1st July 1917 - Column 1558f-g https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/109435049

There is no entry for a D.A.Williams in the index for that month. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/109455149

The July 1917 British Army Monthly List has a Second Lieutenant D.J. Williams, Army Cyclist Corps, who appears to have been commissioned with effect from the 1st September 1914, but his seniority in the Corps dates from 11th January 1915 - presumably when he transferred in to the Army Cyclist Corps. (Column 1558g). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/104024132

He seems to be remarkably elusive as far as the London Gazette is concerned, either directly or via The Times.

Cheers,
Peter

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to look Peter, especially so late at night.  It seems he must have served with some other corps before January 1915, probably I think as a Territorial and I’m not sure how complete and well preserved TF enlistment records are. If it is a TF unit as I anticipate turn his home town and address will probably be associated with it given the need for regularly attended drill stations to be nearby.

[TK1967]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to look Peter, especially so late at night.  It seems he must have served with some other corps before January 1915, probably I think as a Territorial and I’m not sure how complete and well preserved TF enlistment records are. If it is a TF unit as I anticipate turn his home town and address will probably be associated with it given the need for regularly attended drill stations to be nearby.

Thanks again for both your interest.

 

I’m still looking for suggestions for the Reg no.7,8,28 in group pic? Thanks

[TK1967]

16 minutes ago, TK1967 said:

Thanks again for both your interest.

 

I’m still looking for suggestions for the Reg no.7,8,28 in group pic? Thanks

I have a hunch it’s Durham Light Infantry

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, TK1967 said:

I’m still looking for suggestions for the Reg no.7,8,28 in group pic? Thanks

Why, I don’t understand your purpose with that?  The insignia is really indecipherable other than to say that all three appear to be individual units going by the vague, but different shapes, and with or without collar badges that where present also differ.  The only thing they have in common is a penchant for pale coloured shirts and the officers unstructured versions of resilient trench cap.  Is this just your curiosity or are you attempting to achieve something meaningful?  To be honest these are among the worst images that I think I’ve ever seen anyone expect to get any information from.

Just now, TK1967 said:

I have a hunch it’s Durham Light Infantry

A ‘hunch’ based on what exactly?