Uniform identification??

[PRC]

58 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

although it would be good to see his face side-by-side with the two images of the seated officer.  

Ask and ye shall shall receive, for such is the way of the forum Re-orientated to make comparison simpler.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners

So if I've understood correctly, left hand picture is believe to date from July 1920, the centre picture from November 1920 and the right hand picture from 1965.

Personal opinion, as always, but despite the passage of time I can still see more in common between the two end pictures than either have with Officer 17..

Which leads back to the how definate the date is for the left hand picture. As we know the Army Cyclist Corp no longer exists then could we be looking at a much earlier picture with an MID emblem on a 14 or 14/15 Star, (excuse my ignorance if that's not possible). Sight of the whole picture is most definately needed - hopefully before this thread gets to two hundred posts!

And thank you @FROGSMILE for looking out the South Wales Borderers and ruling out that possibility - the side by sides are the least I can do for the time you take.

Cheers,
Peter

[TK1967]

3 minutes ago, PRC said:

Ask and ye shall shall receive, for such is the way of the forum Re-orientated to make comparison simpler.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners

So if I've understood correctly, left hand picture is believe to date from July 1920, the centre picture from November 1920 and the right hand picture from 1965.

Personal opinion, as always, but despite the passage of time I can still see more in common between the two end pictures than either have with Officer 17..

Which leads back to the how definate the date is for the left hand picture. As we know the Army Cyclist Corp no longer exists then could we be looking at a much earlier picture with an MID emblem on a 14 or 14/15 Star, (excuse my ignorance if that's not possible). Sight of the whole picture is most definately needed - hopefully before this thread gets to two hundred posts!

And thank you @FROGSMILE for looking out the South Wales Borderers and ruling out that possibility - the side by sides are the least I can do for the time you take.

Cheers,
Peter

Whole pic doesn’t help- iwith a few Pte’s different regs, WAACs and one Officer from a different reg. It’s definitely St Pol 1920. Perhaps he got there earlier than July in 1920 or hung onto cap badge for a bit before swapping to Staff?

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, PRC said:

Ask and ye shall shall receive, for such is the way of the forum Re-orientated to make comparison simpler.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners

So if I've understood correctly, left hand picture is believe to date from July 1920, the centre picture from November 1920 and the right hand picture from 1965.

Personal opinion, as always, but despite the passage of time I can still see more in common between the two end pictures than either have with Officer 17..

Which leads back to the how definate the date is for the left hand picture. As we know the Army Cyclist Corp no longer exists then could we be looking at a much earlier picture with an MID emblem on a 14 or 14/15 Star, (excuse my ignorance if that's not possible). Sight of the whole picture is most definately needed - hopefully before this thread gets to two hundred posts!

And thank you @FROGSMILE for looking out the South Wales Borderers and ruling out that possibility - the side by sides are the least I can do for the time you take.

Cheers,
Peter

Thank you Peter for taking the time to arrange the photos, it’s always very helpful in the comparisons.  I’m a bit surprised that you can’t match the two wartime faces.  Not only are the facial features strikingly similar (and I recognise your point about eye of the beholder), but the cap is identical and typical of what happens when a serviceman uses one for a lengthy period indelibly stamping his mark upon it by the way he dons and wears it.  As a man who wears an identical military shirt each day (they were usually purchased in small batches) and ties a knot in his own way, even that style is discernible.  However, matching the much older man is far more problematic and I don’t see him as the same person (especially nose) although his broad grin does make comparison a little more difficult.  Nonetheless, my conclusion is as I see it after methodic and lengthy scrutiny.

[TK1967]

14 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you Peter for taking the time to arrange the photos, it’s always very helpful in the comparisons.  I’m a bit surprised that you can’t match the two wartime faces.  Not only are the facial features strikingly similar (and I recognise your point about eye of the beholder), but the cap is identical and typical of what happens when a serviceman uses one for a lengthy period indelibly stamping his mark upon it by the way he dons and wears it.  As a man who wears an identical military shirt each day (they were usually purchased in small batches) and ties a knot in his own way, even that style is discernible.  However, matching the much older man is far more problematic and I don’t see him as the same person (especially nose) although his broad grin does make comparison a little more difficult.  Nonetheless, my conclusion is as I see it after methodic and lengthy scrutiny.

45 years later, 76 years old, long time, we all change?

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, TK1967 said:

45 years later, 76 years old, long time, we all change?

You have a really bad habit of situating your appreciation to achieve the result that you want rather than basing your analysis objectively.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

55 minutes ago, PRC said:

My opinion (FWIW) is that the two left hand men are the same man.
And the caps are suspiciously similar too.

47 minutes ago, TK1967 said:

Whole pic doesn’t help

You could perhaps have expressed your gratitude to PRC in just a slightly less negative manner...

[TK1967]

10 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

You have a really bad habit of situating your appreciation to achieve the result that you want rather than basing your analysis objectively.

Who said I’m objective? No I agree that bias is no aid to the truth - anchoring bias, confirmation bias etc. That’s why I’m talking to you Gentlemen.

[TK1967]

1 minute ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

My opinion (FWIW) is that the two left hand men are the same man.
And the caps are suspiciously similar too.

You could perhaps have expressed your gratitude to PRC in just a slightly less negative manner...

? I was just explaining how the whole pic doesn’t help while understanding his  logical desire to see it- it’s not helpful as it’s not a reg group pic for example and no one else has a similar cap badge. It’s in St Pol GHQ 1920, that’s some orientation.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

3 minutes ago, TK1967 said:

? I was just explaining how the whole pic doesn’t help while understanding his  logical desire to see it- it’s not helpful as it’s not a reg group pic for example and no one else has a similar cap badge. It’s in St Pol GHQ 1920, that’s some orientation.

Your comment placed under the newly created triptych implies that the comment relates to the triptych and that the triptych doesn't help.
If it relates to another image, you should either link to that image or include the image with your comment to make it clear what your words relate to.

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, TK1967 said:

I was just explaining how the whole pic doesn’t help

If you genuinely want the help of others then you should let them decide that rather than impose your conditions upon them and yet still expect them to be motivated with one hand tied behind their back.

Edited Monday at 16:53 by FROGSMILE

[TK1967]

16 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Your comment placed under the newly created triptych implies that the comment relates to the triptych and that the triptych doesn't help.
If it relates to another image, you should either link to that image or include the image with your comment to make it clear what your words relate to.

Sorry Dai- no I was just referring to  the seated pic not the triptych which is great!

[TK1967]

15 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

If you genuinely want the help of others then you should let them decide that rather than impose your conditions upon them and yet still expect them to be motivated with one hand tied behind their back.

Sorry I should have explained- one or two of the pics are from private collections. I don’t have permission to publish whole pic, just the bare minimum. If it really helped I would seek it but the pics are largely poor quality and I have provided every context I can to help. 

[owen4256]

Several officers (at  least 4, 27 and 30) appear to be wearing the ribbons of either the 1914 or 1914-15 star so not convinced by the "logistics" argument. I'm not clear where the  "Dewi" comes from since the  May 1921 list only shows  D.A. Williams. Do you have another source for the "Dewi A Williams"?

I believe that D J Williams was substantive Lieutenant in August 1915 and would almost certainly have been made substantive in July 1917 after two years overseas.  It would be very unusual for an officer commissioned in September 1914 and with more that two years overseas service to be still only a substantive Second Lieutenant in July 1920. 

The ribbons worn by  No 17  ( who is in my view the same officer as the armlet Captain) do not support either photo being D J Williams.  

The Army List entry is against D A Williams being one and the same as D J Williams on the grounds of the substantive rank.

 

[TK1967]

23 minutes ago, owen4256 said:

Several officers (at  least 4, 27 and 30) appear to be wearing the ribbons of either the 1914 or 1914-15 star so not convinced by the "logistics" argument. I'm not clear where the  "Dewi" comes from since the  May 1921 list only shows  D.A. Williams. Do you have another source for the "Dewi A Williams"?

I believe that D J Williams was substantive Lieutenant in August 1915 and would almost certainly have been made substantive in July 1917 after two years overseas.  It would be very unusual for an officer commissioned in September 1914 and with more that two years overseas service to be still only a substantive Second Lieutenant in July 1920. 

The ribbons worn by  No 17  ( who is in my view the same officer as the armlet Captain) do not support either photo being D J Williams.  

The Army List entry is against D A Williams being one and the same as D J Williams on the grounds of the substantive rank.

 

So both D A and D J Williams both being in Cyclist Corp is just coincidence? Age also looks correct for Dewi- 31, not a young man but not middle aged. Williams is common name I accept, but both are a D? 
 

D A is listed 1921 as Temp Lt (temp Capt Jan 1919)- also could move to GHQ Staff Capt from a AAC delay promotion a bit? I don’t know.

Edited Monday at 17:48 by TK1967

[Muerrisch]

Would TK 1967 please provide a summary of evidence, preferably with numbered bullet points and with each item referenced for off-Forum source?

That way agreement or otherwise could be harvested from the experts.

And, in the absence of posts being #numbered automatically, provide the items with a reference in sequence, as in number x being identified as number x.

Please.

As an aside, I believe Army Lists other than Monthly only contain regular officers.

[TK1967]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

Would TK 1967 please provide a summary of evidence, preferably with numbered bullet points and with each item referenced for off-Forum source?

That way agreement or otherwise could be harvested from the experts.

And, in the absence of posts being #numbered automatically, provide the items with a reference in sequence, as in number x being identified as number x.

Please.

As an aside, I believe Army Lists other than Monthly only contain regular officers.

Monthly Army lists

1. Records- Lt D J Williams AAC War record to 1917.

Group Photo DGRE at St Pol GHQ Nov 1920-Officer listed as no.17 on pic and seated pic St Pol of ACC Officer circa July 1920  can be imagined as same man as confirmed 1965 pic of D J Williams.
 

ACC disband April 1920.

2 Army list-D A Williams - temp Lt, Act temp Capt from Jan 1919.

D A Joins St Pol GHQ July 1920 as GHQ Staff temp Captain.

May-Oct 1921 still listed as GHQ Staff temp Captain.

Oct 1921 BEF exit F&F

3. Photo circa St Pol July 1920 Officer seated with confirmed  ACC cap badge and Staff band. Sam Browne.

 

4. DGRE Group pic St Pol Nov 1920 no.17 Officer looks very similar to 3. above but with different, smaller cap badge which could be Staff badge.However No Sam Browne. No staff band.

 

5. 2 blurred standing pics at DGRE event Nov 1920 show Officer similar shaped cap to 3. and 4. above Sam Brown and Staff band. Possible same build also.

? is this all D J and just listing mistake as D A or is D J different person and not at St Pol at all?

Only one confirmed pic of DJ 1965.

no confirmed pic of D A, if different person.

 

Edited Monday at 19:36 by TK1967

[PRC]

21 hours ago, PRC said:

The December 1919 British Army Monthly List shows a D.J. Williams a Lieutenant in the Army Cyclists Corps with seniority from the 1st July 1917 - Column 1558f-g https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/109435049

There is no entry for a D.A.Williams in the index for that month. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/109455149

As posted earlier, the index to the December 1919 British Army Monthly List, the second link in the quote above, does not show a single D.A. Williams.
(December 1919 is the last Monthly List available on the National Library of Scotland website).

Without retracing my steps my memory is that it was a recurring theme as a I dipped into the wartime years in the monthly list that there was no D.A. Williams, although having found a column number I didn't always have to check the index as I worked my way through.

And of course that would be regardless of what the "D" actually stood for. While an officer might choose not to formally apply for his medals, (although the ribbands would have been readily available, potentially explaining their presence in the pictures), the same officer didn't have any choice over whether or not he appeared in the Monthly Army Lists.

The lists are not perfect. That index shows D.J. Williams as being in column 1558g. And skipping down the D. William's in the index column there is a Territorial Force Officer D.L.G. Williams who is said to be in column 1558f - so another Army Cyclist Corps Officer.  While he is listed under the Army Cyclists Corps he is actually in column 1558i as a Lieutenant \ Acting Captain, and serving as a Court Martial Officer. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/109435061

So it seems out of nowhere we suddenly have a D.A. Williams serving at St.Pol, and he also is believed to have held a commission in the Army Cyclists Corps.  Was he newly commissioned in a Corps that was ceasing to exist?  - seems unlikely even if if he not the individual(s) in the photographs.

The image we have show the Army Cyclist Corps Officer with what appears to be two service medal ribbands, possibly with an emblem for being mentioned in despatches. It's difficult to see that level of detail on the image of Officer 17. Looking for a Medal Index Card in the National Archive catalogue for:-
First Name = D*
Last name = Williams
Rank = Lieutenant (Which will also bring up 2nd Lieutenants and Lieutenant Colonels),
And then refining the results just to "Cyclists" brings up
David James Williams, 2nd Lieutenant then Lieutenant, received the 1914/15 Star but no mention of which the first theatre was or date of landing on the front of the card. No reference to the issue of emblems.
Douglas Lionel Gwynne Williams, Lieutenant then Captain, first landed in France 3rd August 1917, (or possibly 13th but I think it's just a mark on the card). No reference to the issue of emblems.

Re-running the search for Captain and Major brings up no additional names.

May be a question of chasing D.A. Williams through the Army Lists - backwards and forwards - to see if anything more can be gleaned about him. If I was a gambling man, (and I'm not!), I'd be putting money on it being a composition \ printing error.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited Monday at 21:52 by PRC
Typos

[TK1967]

19 minutes ago, PRC said:

As posted earlier, the index to the December 1919 British Army Monthly List, the second link in the quote above, does not show a single D.A. Williams.
(December 1919 is the last Monthly List available on the National Library of Scotland website).

Without retracing my steps my memory is that it was a recurring theme as a I dipped into the wartime years in the monthly list that there was no D.A. Williams, although having found a column number I didn't always have to check the index as I worked my way through.

And of course that would be regardless of what the "D" actually stood for. While an officer might choose not to formally apply for his medals, (although the ribbands would have been readily available, potentially explaining their presence in the pictures), the same officer didn't have any choice over whether or not he appeared in the Monthly Army Lists.

The lists are not perfect. That index shows D.J. Williams as being in column 1558g. And skipping down the D. William's in the index column there is a Territorial Force Officer D.L.G. Williams who is said to be in column 1558f - so another Army Cyclist Corps Officer.  While he is listed under the Army Cyclists Corps he is actually in column 1558i as a Lieutenant \ Acting Captain, and serving as a Court Martial Officer. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/109435061

So it seems out of nowhere we suddenly have a D.A. Williams serving at St.Pol, and he also is believed to have held a commission in the Army Cyclists Corps.  Was he newly commissioned in a Corps that was ceasing to exist?  - seems unlikely even if if he not the individual(s) in the photographs.

The image we have show the Army Cyclist Corps Officer wiith what appears to be two service medal ribbands, possibly with an emblem for being mentioned in despatches. It's difficult to see that level of detail on the image of Officer 17. Looking for a Medal Index Card in the National Archive catalogue for:-
First Name = D*
Last name = Williams
Rank = Lieutenant (Which will also bring up 2nd Lieutenants and Lieutenant Colonels),
And then refining the results just to "Cyclists" brings up
David James Williams, 2nd Lieutenant then Lieutenant, received the 1914/15 Star but no mention of which the first theatre was or date of landing on the front of the card. No reference to the issue of emblems.
Douglas Lionel Gwynne Williams, Lieutenant then Captain, first landed in France 3rd August 1917, (or possibly 13th but I think it's just a mark on the card). No reference to the issue of emblems.

Re-running the search for Captain and Major brings up no additional names.

May be a question of chasing D.A. Williams through the Army Lists - backwards and forwards - to see if anything more can be gleaned about him. If I was a gambling man, (and I'm not!), I'd be putting money on it being a composition \ printing error.

Cheers,
Peter

Appreciate thoughts- D A is in monthly Army lists 1921 as at St Pol GHQ F&F General Staff Captain- it states he has been temp Capt since Jan 19.

An ACC Staff Captain appears in pics from St Pol latter part of 1920. No other ACC in St Pol DGRE Officer lists at least.

Stepping back and using Occam's Razor- D J was listed 1920-21 as D A by error.

[PRC]

4 minutes ago, TK1967 said:

D A is in monthly Army lists 1921 as at St Pol GHQ F&F General Staff Captain- it states he has been temp Capt since Jan 19.

D.J Williams is in the December 1919 Monthly Army List as a Temporary Lieutenant. There are errors and omissions in that source and even if a change isn't missed altogether it can sometimes take over a year for the correct information to filter through. As far as I'm concerned its a starting point in need of corroboration as a resource, rather than a definitive source.

D.L.G. Williams however in the same list is a Temporary Lieutenant \ Acting Captain effective 3rd January 1919. Is that a co-incidence number 1.

The officers we are being asked to confirm as one and the same person both appear to be wearing the ribbands of the Victory Medal and the British War Medal.

D.J. Williams is Dewi James Williams, aka David James Williams who qualified for the 1914/15 Star, Victory Medal and British War Medal.
D.L.G Williams is Douglas Lionel Gwynne Williams, who qualified only for the Victory Medal and British War Medal. Is that a co-incidence number 2.

The 1911 Census of England & Wales has the 24 year old Law Student, Douglas Lionel Gwynne Williams, born Knighton, Leicestershire, living with his parents at "Ellerslie", Knighton Park Road, Leicester. Father William was a Solicitor.
The December 1919 Army List has him serving as a Court Martial Officer.
The 1921 Census of England & Wales as indexed on FindMyPast has a Douglas Lionel "Grognne" Williams, born Leicestershire c1887, on an Army Census return.

A Google Search turns up mentions in connection with Oakham School, Rutland but the actual documents require some kind of unexplained sign on - or if it's there I'm missing it.  I suspect as Douglas died in Norwich District, (GRO) on the 29th January 1979 (Probate Calendar), then the entry in a 1979 school magazine is an obituary. https://accesstomemory.oakham.rutland.sch.uk/index.php/the-old-oakhamian-no-41-1979

(There is always a Norfolk connection once I get involved!)

The October 1915 British Army Monthly list shows him commissioned as a Territorial Force Officer effective 11th July 1915 and serving as a 2nd Lieutenant with the 3rd Cyclist Company, North Midland Division, (column 447). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/119929614

My line of thought would be that someone well versed in the Army legal system would naturally gravitate towards a higher level Headquarters, particularly if they stayed in the Army post-war

Is he a viable alternative candidate?

Cheers,
Peter

[PRC]

7 hours ago, TK1967 said:

May 1921 Army list

Plus penny drop moment - it isn't D.A. Williams - that's a wild goose chase we've been sent on as a result of being asked to take information on trust rather than being allowed to make up our own minds. I was so busy still looking for a D.A. Williams that I didn't appreciate the significance of this when it was first posted.

The A. is for Army in Army Cyclist Corps.

If it has been meant to read D.A. then it wouldn't have been written D full stop comma A.

Frustrating,
Peter

 

[Bob Davies]

27 minutes ago, PRC said:

Is he a viable alternative candidate?

From his MIC he entered France 3-8-17.

Wrights Directory Leicester1914 he is listed as a solicitor, Rutland Chambers, 7 Welford Street. Home is Ellerslie, Knighton.

Had his bicycle stolen by an ex Leicestershire regiment soldier between 1st May and 18th June 1915, from a newspaper article in the Leicester Daily Mercury.

He stuck out like a sore thumb from his mention in Harts list.

No ancestry family trees are showing him, that I can find....Until now when three turn up,

however there are no clues on these trees.

I am about half a week behind your searches Peter

Thanks for the three 'side by side' pictures,

the two uniformed Officers are certainly the same man, my jury is still out on the older man.

Regards,

Bob.

 

 

 

[TK1967]

34 minutes ago, PRC said:

Plus penny drop moment - it isn't D.A. Williams - that's a wild goose chase we've been sent on as a result of being asked to take information on trust rather than being allowed to make up our own minds. I was so busy still looking for a D.A. Williams that I didn't appreciate the significance of this when it was first posted.

The A. is for Army in Army Cyclist Corps.

If it has been meant to read D.A. then it wouldn't have been written D full stop comma A.

Frustrating,
Peter

 

That’s great! So still can be Dewi- just put one initial? I did put up the Army list entry for people to read themselves  but it was an honest mistake by me!

 

If DLG a pic could settle if him or Dewi!

Edited Monday at 22:24 by TK1967

[TK1967]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

D.J Williams is in the December 1919 Monthly Army List as a Temporary Lieutenant. There are errors and omissions in that source and even if a change isn't missed altogether it can sometimes take over a year for the correct information to filter through. As far as I'm concerned its a starting point in need of corroboration as a resource, rather than a definitive source.

D.L.G. Williams however in the same list is a Temporary Lieutenant \ Acting Captain effective 3rd January 1919. Is that a co-incidence number 1.

The officers we are being asked to confirm as one and the same person both appear to be wearing the ribbands of the Victory Medal and the British War Medal.

D.J. Williams is Dewi James Williams, aka David James Williams who qualified for the 1914/15 Star, Victory Medal and British War Medal.
D.L.G Williams is Douglas Lionel Gwynne Williams, who qualified only for the Victory Medal and British War Medal. Is that a co-incidence number 2.

The 1911 Census of England & Wales has the 24 year old Law Student, Douglas Lionel Gwynne Williams, born Knighton, Leicestershire, living with his parents at "Ellerslie", Knighton Park Road, Leicester. Father William was a Solicitor.
The December 1919 Army List has him serving as a Court Martial Officer.
The 1921 Census of England & Wales as indexed on FindMyPast has a Douglas Lionel "Grognne" Williams, born Leicestershire c1887, on an Army Census return.

A Google Search turns up mentions in connection with Oakham School, Rutland but the actual documents require some kind of unexplained sign on - or if it's there I'm missing it.  I suspect as Douglas died in Norwich District, (GRO) on the 29th January 1979 (Probate Calendar), then the entry in a 1979 school magazine is an obituary. https://accesstomemory.oakham.rutland.sch.uk/index.php/the-old-oakhamian-no-41-1979

(There is always a Norfolk connection once I get involved!)

The October 1915 British Army Monthly list shows him commissioned as a Territorial Force Officer effective 11th July 1915 and serving as a 2nd Lieutenant with the 3rd Cyclist Company, North Midland Division, (column 447). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/119929614

My line of thought would be that someone well versed in the Army legal system would naturally gravitate towards a higher level Headquarters, particularly if they stayed in the Army post-war

Is he a viable alternative candidate?

Cheers,
Peter

It must be D L G as the D Williams at St Pol in 1921 Army Lists is effective Capt Jan 19 too?

Edited Monday at 22:43 by TK1967

[TK1967]

6 hours ago, TK1967 said:

45 years later, 76 years old, long time, we all change?

I think you were right about Dewi old man pic is not man in St Pol pics - St Pol man is Douglas L G Williams! A was never an initial, it was as in ACC -it was just D Williams all along. We have a 1931 pic of DLG to confirm.

Edited Monday at 22:51 by TK1967

[owen4256]

And our new blurred contender....

 

GWYNNE-WILLIAMS Douglas Lionel Captain born in Knighton, Leicestershire  on the 27^th December 1886 educated at Oakham School. He was the son of Kate Cowling Lee and William Maurice Williams a solicitor. Douglas studied law before the war and was a keen cricketer playing for Leicestershire Public Schools XI against the Leicestershire County side in 1905 and later for the Leicester Ivanhoe Club. Commissioned 8^th July 1915 as Second Lieutenant. North Midland Divisional Cyclist Company, Divisional Mounted Troops.. Promoted Lieutenant on the 1^st July 1917. To France on the 3^rd August 1917and joined I Corps Cyclist Battalion on the 22^nd  August 1917 Appointed Courts-Martial Officer, Headquarters First Army and to be acting Captain while so employed 3^rd January 1919.Relinquished commission 30^th September 1921, granted rank of Captain. Died Norwich 29^th January 1979

Pictured in the Tatler August 1931 playing for Old Oakhamians