Uniform identification??

[TK1967]

2 minutes ago, owen4256 said:

And our new blurred contender....

 

GWYNNE-WILLIAMS Douglas Lionel Captain born in Knighton, Leicestershire  on the 27^th December 1886 educated at Oakham School. He was the son of Kate Cowling Lee and William Maurice Williams a solicitor. Douglas studied law before the war and was a keen cricketer playing for Leicestershire Public Schools XI against the Leicestershire County side in 1905 and later for the Leicester Ivanhoe Club. Commissioned 8^th July 1915 as Second Lieutenant. North Midland Divisional Cyclist Company, Divisional Mounted Troops.. Promoted Lieutenant on the 1^st July 1917. To France on the 3^rd August 1917and joined I Corps Cyclist Battalion on the 22^nd  August 1917 Appointed Courts-Martial Officer, Headquarters First Army and to be acting Captain while so employed 3^rd January 1919.Relinquished commission 30^th September 1921, granted rank of Captain. Died Norwich 29^th January 1979

Pictured in the Tatler August 1931 playing for Old Oakhamians

That’s him! Round face thin long nose- well done and thanks!

[PRC]

30 minutes ago, TK1967 said:

but it was an honest mistake by me

Understood as that, but yesterday (13th) at 13.25 you told us the identification was Dewi A, but only approximately 7 hours ago did you post the documentary evidence to support it - and that actually shows us it wasn't Dewi A at all. In the meantime I've spent hours trying to find you a Dewi A., (and yes I know you didn't ask me too), that would square the circle, and that focus meant I missed the importance of what the extract from the May 1921 Army List was telling us.

The statement as to who it was and what you believed to be the supporting evidence posted together might have prevented the frustration that I'm feeling and applied more generally addressed the exasperation some of the other responders have vented.

If the owners of the other pictures won't agree to sharing them on a public forum, (and that's entirely understandable), then I think there is little point trying to using the zoomed crops you've posted for identification purposes. Perhaps we can agree to park those. The Fitz Simons sourced one with 40 individuals may be more of a possibility so if I'm a bit less grumpy in the morning I'll take another look!

Peter

[TK1967]

So 17 

Edited 2 hours ago by TK1967

[TK1967]

A

Edited 2 hours ago by TK1967

[owen4256]

So 17 is Act Capt L G W Williams ACC General Staff Captain GHQ F&F 1920-21

 

Before you drive anyone else to distraction, can you please correct the further typo on Williams' initials .

Having just celebrated his identification as D L G Williams how about  using those those initials?

Out

[TK1967]

2 minutes ago, owen4256 said:

So 17 is Act Capt L G W Williams ACC General Staff Captain GHQ F&F 1920-21

 

Before you drive anyone else to distraction, can you please correct the further typo on Williams' initials .

Having just celebrated his identification as D L G Williams how about  using those those initials?

Out

Haha done. 

[TK1967]

11 hours ago, TK1967 said:

As you are all doing so well here’s another challenge and I don’t expect miracles! I’ve got a list of 8 Officers- all act Majors. Do any fit uniforms on these 6 Officers on the second line from front of pic- no.s 21, 22, 24,27,28,29??

I think Gardiner is 28, the rest 

Ah OK- I didn’t get what you meant that they also wore staff badges not just Reg badges- so that makes complete sense

For ease the uniforms I am looking for on Officers pic no  21, 22, 24,27,,29 - if we can identify any uniforms we can simply put names to faces.

The uniforms are from a choice of;

London Reg

Northumberland F

Middlesex

Duke of Cornwall LI

RE

RA

Essex

Even 1 or 2 of the 5 Officers identified will be good. I will try to upload highest possible quality pic but it won’t satisfy. 

 

Pps Still work to do! See above

Edited Monday at 23:49 by TK1967

[FROGSMILE]

54 minutes ago, owen4256 said:

And our new blurred contender....

 

GWYNNE-WILLIAMS Douglas Lionel Captain born in Knighton, Leicestershire  on the 27^th December 1886 educated at Oakham School. He was the son of Kate Cowling Lee and William Maurice Williams a solicitor. Douglas studied law before the war and was a keen cricketer playing for Leicestershire Public Schools XI against the Leicestershire County side in 1905 and later for the Leicester Ivanhoe Club. Commissioned 8^th July 1915 as Second Lieutenant. North Midland Divisional Cyclist Company, Divisional Mounted Troops.. Promoted Lieutenant on the 1^st July 1917. To France on the 3^rd August 1917and joined I Corps Cyclist Battalion on the 22^nd  August 1917 Appointed Courts-Martial Officer, Headquarters First Army and to be acting Captain while so employed 3^rd January 1919.Relinquished commission 30^th September 1921, granted rank of Captain. Died Norwich 29^th January 1979

Pictured in the Tatler August 1931 playing for Old Oakhamians

Yes I believe that photo shows our seated man.  Good job Owen.

[PRC]

9 hours ago, owen4256 said:

And our new blurred contender....

GWYNNE-WILLIAMS Douglas Lionel Captain born in Knighton, Leicestershire  on the 27^th December 1886 educated at Oakham School. He was the son of Kate Cowling Lee and William Maurice Williams a solicitor. Douglas studied law before the war and was a keen cricketer playing for Leicestershire Public Schools XI against the Leicestershire County side in 1905 and later for the Leicester Ivanhoe Club. Commissioned 8^th July 1915 as Second Lieutenant. North Midland Divisional Cyclist Company, Divisional Mounted Troops.. Promoted Lieutenant on the 1^st July 1917. To France on the 3^rd August 1917and joined I Corps Cyclist Battalion on the 22^nd  August 1917 Appointed Courts-Martial Officer, Headquarters First Army and to be acting Captain while so employed 3^rd January 1919.Relinquished commission 30^th September 1921, granted rank of Captain. Died Norwich 29^th January 1979

Pictured in the Tatler August 1931 playing for Old Oakhamians

Thank you Owen - great find Is that one of the editions of The Tatler from Archive org - if so I must keep an eye out for it when that part of the website is restored.

For now a side by side comparison looks like this:-

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

His entry on Page 599 of the Law Society Record of Service of Solictors and Articled Clerks with his Majesty’s Forces 1914-1919 doesn't add any new information, just confirms what we already know.

Douglas Lionel Gwynne Williams
Articled to W.M. Williams, of Leicester. Served as 2nd Lieut., North Midlands Divisional Cyclists, promoted Lieut. July 1917, A/Capt., Courts Martial Officer Jan.1919.

As his father from the 1911 Census of England & Wales was William Maurice Williams, Solicitor, I suspect Douglas was articled in his fathers firm. His father passed away on the 17th September leaving estate valued at £7,704 14s 11d, (even only allowing for inflation that would be over £600k in 2024, which ignores how much further money went in those days - if you had it!).

Would be interesting to know where Douglas was shown as stationed on the 1921 Census and what role he was engaged in.

Not come across any instances of him being hyphenated - is there a source for that?

@TK1967 - if you can work out how to register with the Oakham School website might be worthwhile contacting the school archivist to see if they have any pictures of Douglas. You potentially have something to offer in return if the pictures from St.Pol 1920 can definately be confirmed as being Douglas - if for example his records confirm as being stationed there at the time in question.

Even given the slightly blurry state of the 1931 image I can see the resemblance to the Army Cyclist Corps Officer, but personally still struggling with matching them both to Officer 17. At the angle he is holding his head we should be able to see his left ear. On the other two images the left ear is quite slim and close to the head. Now it may be a blemish on the image of Officer 17 but the ear seems to be larger and sticking out. While that could be as a result of an accident you might expect it still to be present in 1931 but I'm not seeing it. A chin comparison is also difficult as in the 1931 dated image he appears to have it down resting on his scarf.

Unfortunately there isn't an option to add a voting button to individual posts so no clear cut way to see what the majority opinion is on how good a match it is. I suspect though that I am a lonely voice speaking against it.

Cheers,
Peter

[6RRF]

Puzzling over this [and indeed the whole thread] I'd agree that number 17 and the gentleman on the left are one and the same, especially as Frogsmile says, given the set of the tie and cap. The man on the right is complicated by being older and suffering from a blurred photo and different style of dress, but I think that the nose is very distinctive and common to all three

[TK1967]

1 hour ago, 6RRF said:

Puzzling over this [and indeed the whole thread] I'd agree that number 17 and the gentleman on the left are one and the same, especially as Frogsmile says, given the set of the tie and cap. The man on the right is complicated by being older and suffering from a blurred photo and different style of dress, but I think that the nose is very distinctive and common to all three

I’m happy to accept 17 could just be a bizarre lookalike to Williams. Main thing is Staff Officer D L G Williams has been identified to his name, reg,rank.

 

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, TK1967 said:

I’m happy to accept 17 could just be a bizarre lookalike to Williams. Main thing is Staff Officer D L G Williams has been identified to his name, reg,rank.

 

I think you are misunderstanding 6RRF and again in danger of going in circles.  It’s been pretty firmly established, and quite frankly blindingly obvious given the prolific matching points of reference in both, facial features, and items of personal dress style, that Number 17, with staff badge and gorgets, and the other seated image showing ACC insignia and an Army HQ staff armlet, are one and the same man.  One would hope that you might be moving on now…

Edited 19 hours ago by FROGSMILE

[TK1967]

43 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think you are misunderstanding 6RRF and again in danger of going in circles.  It’s been pretty firmly established, and quite frankly blindingly obvious given the prolific matching points of reference in both, facial features, and items of personal dress style, that Number 17, with staff badge and gorgets and the other seated image, showing ACC insignia and an Army HQ staff armlet, are one and the same man.  One would hope that you might be moving on now…

Ok well I’m glad that’s that. 

[Muerrisch]

2 hours ago, TK1967 said:

Ok well I’m glad that’s that. 

It was Instructive and entertaining.

[TK1967]

4 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

It was Instructive and entertaining.

Very!  Very Grateful to all contributors-even the grumpier ones whose knowledge is golden!

Still have questions about other Officers if any one still has the stomach for it!

[PRC]

5 hours ago, PRC said:

Would be interesting to know where Douglas was shown as stationed on the 1921 Census and what role he was engaged in.

Well as no-one was biting and my errands today only required a very small detour to go via the library I waltzed in for 10 minutes to see where Douglas was recorded on the night of the 19th June 1921.

Here he is on part of the census schedule, (line 5), along with at least one other name you are hopefully familiar with on line 4.

If the F&F wasn't enough of a clue, the Census Schedule is shown as being for

Both images courtesy FindMyPast - ignore the date, due to industrial action in the UK the Census had to be postponed. The government decided not to go to the expense of reprinting and re-issuing, instead advising the general populace of the new date to be used. There are a number of returns for members of the Army serving in France, although many are just shown as Armee Anglais, Poste Restante.

Cheers,
Peter

[TK1967]

10 minutes ago, PRC said:

Well as no-one was biting and my errands today only required a very small detour to go via the library I waltzed in for 10 minutes to see where Douglas was recorded on the night of the 19th June 1921.

Here he is on part of the census schedule, (line 5), along with at least one other name you are hopefully familiar with on line 4.

If the F&F wasn't enough of a clue, the Census Schedule is shown as being for

Both images courtesy FindMyPast - ignore the date, due to industrial action in the UK the Census had to be postponed. The government decided not to go to the expense of reprinting and re-issuing, instead advising the general populace of the new date to be used. There are a number of returns for members of the Army serving in France, although many are just shown as Armee Anglais, Poste Restante.

Cheers,
Peter

If only you found this before! Of course we weren’t looking for D L G then ha. That’s great real proof final thankyou. My saying he was D A  Williams, not realising A was for Army not his initial, was a capitol offence.

[PRC]

18 hours ago, TK1967 said:

I am looking for on Officers pic no  21, 22, 24,27,,29

Despite the odd shading differences it looks like many of the officers present, including Officer 17, are wearing the ribbands of the Victory Medal and British War Medal. That would appear to include Officers 21, 22, 24 and 27.

Officer 28’s medal ribbon can only partially be seen, and by comparison to 21, 22, and 23 appear to have a row that ends just beside his armpit, suggesting there might be at least another medal ribband to the left of what we can see – but we have something similar with Officer 27 and he apparently only has the two ribbands.

The area of the chest where ribbands might have appeared on Officer 29 are totally obscured by the head of the man seated in front of him.

Of the eight Majors you asked to consider as potentially being present, and looking to reduce that number, then only two are shown with gallantry medals -  Temporary Captain T. McLachlan, D.S.O. M.C. Service Bns Northumberland Fusiliers, (temporary Major 12th August 1919) and Temporary Lieutenant A.W. Fosbroke-Hobbes, M.C., Royal Artillery, (temporary Major 1st January 1920).

From the limited resolution detail available I wouldn’t be confident that either 28 or 29 was serving with a Fusiliers or Artillery unit.

Starting with the rarer surname, for A.W. Fosbroke-Hobbes, M.C., Royal Artillery, there is a MiC for an Adrian Wrigley Fosbroke Hobbs. M.C., who was a 2nd Lieutenant with the 1/52 Battery, R.F.A., 9th Division, when he first landed in the “Western European” Theatre of War on the 12th May 1915. He was subsequently an Acting\Captain with 19th Brigade, Royal Horse Artillery. But then a few flies in the ointment crop up. As officers had to claim their medals, many MiC’s were created in anticipation of claims, based on nominal rolls submitted by units. Thus on the back of the MiC we find reference to a nominal roll submitted on the 5th March 1919 by, (my abbreviation expansions), Staff Captain for D.A.G. 3rd Echelon, General Head Quarters, Egyptian Expeditionary Force – his address being recorded then as Alexandria.

A nominal roll of Officers entitled to either the 14 or 15 Star was also received on the 20th August 1921 – this time from the Officer Commanding 3rd Hussars, Aldershot.  When Adrian formally applied for his medals in September 1921 his contact address was given as c\o Officer Commanding, 3rd Hussars.

So he starts 1919 in Egypt, although attached to the Expeditionary Force Headquarters. By the late summer of 1921 he was at Aldershot. I’m not spotting him on the 1921 Census of England & Wales. There is a gap then during which time he could have been at St. Pol but that needs checking.

There is an image  of Lieutenant Adrian Wrigley Fosbroke Hobbes on the Imperial War Museum website. He is not wearing a Military Cross ribband, and there is a note that the picture was “purchased in January 1918”. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205301308

A piece on Hove and the First World War website has this for him.

“He was born in 1896 in Sutton Coldfield, but his parents moved to Hove, and he was educated at Brighton Grammar School. His parents lived at 54 Sackville Gardens, and his father was a doctor. Adrian joined the Royal Horse Artillery, and he served in France from May 1915 to October 1915, and in Mesopotamia from December 1915 to June 1916. Then followed a spell in India, and from November 1917 to June 1919 he was to be found serving in Palestine and Syria. His Military Cross was bestowed on him in the Jordan Valley on 14 July 1918 for galloping across open ground under heavy fire, directing the fire of the battery against a counter-attack by the Turks and the Germans, and with two other men, capturing six officers, 120 men and twelve machine-guns. He survived the war.

His brother, Captain Alan J. Fosbrooke Hobbes served in the Tank Corps in France, and returned home safely too. Another brother, Johnstone Fosbrooke Hobbes was in South Africa.”
http://hovehistory.blogspot.com/2020/09/hove-and-first-world-war-i.html

My suggestion would be a possible match for Officer 29 – but that of course assumes Fosbrooke Hobbes is even present. It’s not a question of timing - you mentioned earlier that there were about 70 staff. Was that just the officers from the Army List? Did that include Woman Officers? Take the 3 woman and the French Officer out of the equation and you are down to 36, or just over 50% of the possible officer on the establishment.

No new IP is claimed for the above and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.
Image  on the left courtesy of the Imperial War Museum website, reference HU 115685. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205301308
 
Cheers,
Peter

Edited 17 hours ago by PRC
Typos

[TK1967]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Despite the odd shading differences it looks like many of the officers present, including Officer 17, are wearing the ribbands of the Victory Medal and British War Medal. That would appear to include Officers 21, 22, 24 and 27.

Officer 28’s medal ribbon can only partially be seen, and by comparison to 21, 22, and 23 appear to have a row that ends just beside his armpit, suggesting there might be at least another medal ribband to the left of what we can see – but we have something similar with Officer 27 and he apparently only has the two ribbands.

The area of the chest where ribbands might have appeared on Officer 29 are totally obscured by the head of the man seated in front of him.

Of the eight Majors you asked to consider as potentially being present, and looking to reduce that number, then only two are shown with gallantry medals -  Temporary Captain T. McLachlan, D.S.O. M.C. Service Bns Northumberland Fusiliers, (temporary Major 12th August 1919) and Temporary Lieutenant A.W. Fosbroke-Hobbes, M.C., Royal Artillery, (temporary Major 1st January 1920).

From the limited resolution detail available I wouldn’t be confident that either 28 or 29 was serving with a Fusiliers or Artillery unit.

Starting with the rarer surname, for A.W. Fosbroke-Hobbes, M.C., Royal Artillery, there is a MiC for an Adrian Wrigley Fosbroke Hobbs. M.C., who was a 2nd Lieutenant with the 1/52 Battery, R.F.A., 9th Division, when he first landed in the “Western European” Theatre of War on the 12th May 1915. He was subsequently an Acting\Captain with 19th Brigade, Royal Horse Artillery. But then a few flies in the ointment crop up. As officers had to claim their medals, many MiC’s were created in anticipation of claims, based on nominal rolls submitted by units. Thus on the back of the MiC we find reference to a nominal roll submitted on the 5th March 1919 by, (my abbreviation expansions), Staff Captain for D.A.G. 3rd Echelon, General Head Quarters, Egyptian Expeditionary Force – his address being recorded then as Alexandria.

A nominal roll of Officers entitled to either the 14 or 15 Star was also received on the 20th August 1921 – this time from the Officer Commanding 3rd Hussars, Aldershot.  When Adrian formally applied for his medals in September 1921 his contact address was given as c\o Officer Commanding, 3rd Hussars.

So he starts 1919 in Egypt, although attached to the Expeditionary Force Headquarters. By the late summer of 1921 he was at Aldershot. I’m not spotting him on the 1921 Census of England & Wales. There is a gap then during which time he could have been at St. Pol but that needs checking.

There is an image  of Lieutenant Adrian Wrigley Fosbroke Hobbes on the Imperial War Museum website. He is not wearing a Military Cross ribband, and there is a note that the picture was “purchased in January 1918”. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205301308

A piece on Hove and the First World War website has this for him.

“He was born in 1896 in Sutton Coldfield, but his parents moved to Hove, and he was educated at Brighton Grammar School. His parents lived at 54 Sackville Gardens, and his father was a doctor. Adrian joined the Royal Horse Artillery, and he served in France from May 1915 to October 1915, and in Mesopotamia from December 1915 to June 1916. Then followed a spell in India, and from November 1917 to June 1919 he was to be found serving in Palestine and Syria. His Military Cross was bestowed on him in the Jordan Valley on 14 July 1918 for galloping across open ground under heavy fire, directing the fire of the battery against a counter-attack by the Turks and the Germans, and with two other men, capturing six officers, 120 men and twelve machine-guns. He survived the war.

His brother, Captain Alan J. Fosbrooke Hobbes served in the Tank Corps in France, and returned home safely too. Another brother, Johnstone Fosbrooke Hobbes was in South Africa.”
http://hovehistory.blogspot.com/2020/09/hove-and-first-world-war-i.html

My suggestion would be a possible match for Officer 29 – but that of course assumes Fosbrooke Hobbes is even present. It’s not a question of timing - you mentioned earlier that there were about 70 staff. Was that just the officers from the Army List? Did that include Woman Officers? Take the 3 woman and the French Officer out of the equation and you are down to 36, or just over 50% of the possible officer on the establishment.

No new IP is claimed for the above and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.
Image  on the left courtesy of the Imperial War Museum website, reference HU 115685. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205301308
 
Cheers,
Peter

Great work Peter- yes 70 DGRE male Officer staff. Agree only 50% there.
I think Majors and above largely present.

On the Nov 1920 Army list there are 5 Dep Asst Dir- seated front.

In addition Lt Col Mumford is gazetted as promoted to DAD Oct 20 but not on Army list Nov- also Lt Col Tronson may have still been technically Area Commandant in Nov, about to transfer to DAD DGRE, so not in pic due to that.

 

31. (Off camera) is Col Stewart Murray

33 is RE I believe so Lt Col J A Riggall or W H Mumford RE (no pics of either) defo not Vernon (error).
 

The next 4 are definite -

34 Lt Col Sutton

35 Lt Col Bradstock (AD)

36 Wyatt (D/CO)

37 Lt Col Gell.

38  Lt Col N H Mattock? (no photos found)

39. Lt Col A C Watson (passing through from Egypt at time).

Lt Col N G deC Tronson (no pic) could be there and we initially thought he was 39, but Scott convinced it’s Watson. Tronson could be 38. too and Mattock is missing?

2nd Line

I believe there are 8 of the 10 listed ADAD on that line with 4 ( 30 Williams,23 Fitz,28 Gardiner,27 Pester) identified. Leaving 4 unidentified from

 

Northumberland F

Middlesex

Duke of Cornwall LI

RE

RA?

Essex

29. Could be Fosbrooke RA but badge difficult to see.

Edited 15 hours ago by TK1967

[TK1967]

I think 27. Is Pester London Reg. Same as Williams- who has wrist stripes like Pester too but can’t be seen in this photo.

[PRC]

1 hour ago, TK1967 said:

29. Could be Fosbrooke RA but badge difficult to see.

Cogitating on it - if he is wearing staff tabs, then rather like Douglas Williams I'm wondering he is wearing a cap badge related to his staff roll. Perhaps we could trouble @FROGSMILE to take a look.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

[TK1967]

15 minutes ago, PRC said:

Cogitating on it - if he is wearing staff tabs, then rather like Douglas Williams I'm wondering he is wearing a cap badge related to his staff roll. Perhaps we could trouble @FROGSMILE to take a look.

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights, if any, remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

One more staff tabs is on 3rd row ( not incl 2 Staff Chaplains). The cap badge is long looks like Labour Corp - there is another DADD temp Maj W J Ball Labour Corp gazetted who might have missed on Nov Army list?

Edited 14 hours ago by TK1967

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Cogitating on it - if he is wearing staff tabs, then rather like Douglas Williams I'm wondering he is wearing a cap badge related to his staff roll. Perhaps we could trouble @FROGSMILE to take a look.

No not in this case Peter.  He does indeed wear gorget tabs, but in this case not a staff badge.  It’s possible that he’s a BGS (Brigadier General Staff), who wore a generals circular cap badge and the badge of rank of Mameluke sword crossed over a baton, but the poor quality image makes it impossible to be sure.  It could be any one of a number of different circular badges.

Edited 13 hours ago by FROGSMILE

[GWF TEAM]

6 hours ago, TK1967 said:

Very!  Very Grateful to all contributors-even the grumpier ones whose knowledge is golden!

Still have questions about other Officers if any one still has the stomach for it!

We take a dim view of members not respecting other members.

Even though you have hidden it with praise.

Respect for your fellow members

[TK1967]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

No not in this case Peter.  He does indeed wear gorget tabs, but in this case not a staff badge.  It’s possible that he’s a BGS (Brigadier General Staff), who wore a generals circular cap badge and the badge of rank of Mameluke sword crossed over a baton, but the poor quality image makes it impossible to be sure.  It could be any one of a number of different circular badges.

No Brigs except Wyatt at St Pol Frog!