Lt Col Roger Alvin Poore

[Robin Garrett]

I spotted this memorial to Lt Col Roger Poore in Salisbury Cathedral yesterday. @FROGSMILE will be interested. I wonder whether he was a descendant of the family of BIshop Richard Poore, who was instrumental in moving the cathedral in the early 13th century from Old Sarum to its present site in Salisbury.

[Michelle Young]

[Michelle Young]

Photo taken from The War The Infantry Knew edition Jane’s publishing 1987

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Robin Garrett said:

I spotted this memorial to Lt Col Roger Poore in Salisbury Cathedral yesterday. @FROGSMILE will be interested. I wonder whether he was a descendant of the family of BIshop Richard Poore, who was instrumental in moving the cathedral in the early 13th century from Old Sarum to its present site in Salisbury.

Thank you Robin,

 I knew of the Poore family in general through their seeming connection with Salisbury as you say, for I lived in those environs around SPTA for over a decade and always took an interest in the local history.  Many names of RWF C.O.s are familiar from various biographies connected with the regiment, but this one passed me by and I can’t say that I knew of him.  Thank you for drawing him to my attention.  I imagine that @Muerrisch probably knows of him, as he has studied personalities of the 2nd Battalion in some detail.

I think he’s wearing a Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry collar badge in the photo Michelle has posted.

Edited Saturday at 13:59 by FROGSMILE

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

I was intrigued by this thread as I am currently reading The War the Infantry Knew, and it so happens that I have recently passed the point where Major Roger Poore made his entrance in the book as the new second-in-command of the 2nd RWF in February 1917, shortly afterwards presiding over the St David's Day dinner on 1 March 1917 in the absence of the CO, at which, says Dunn, "we all had a jolly time", inter alia using a German Howitzer shell case as a loving cup; the shell case "was to have been sent home after being inscribed and decorated by Serjeant-Shoemaker Johnson ... but it was lost before Poore could make up his mind about the wording."

Dunn pokes a little fun at Poore on a couple of occasions for his sayings and manner of speech, inter alia because he seems to have been one of those prone gratuitously to intersperse his dialogue with the word "What!", and to state the obvious in a way which Dunn found highly comedic. He may also have been a stammerer, if I have interpreted Dunn's way of transcribing his speech correctly.

Dunn also tells of how on 27 April 1917, Poore, being due to go on leave the following day, kept him, in the neghbouring room, awake in that, having got up in the middle of the night four hours before he was due to depart, he paced the floor in his boots, packing and unpacking his kit.

When Poore joined the unit in February 1917 Dunn tells us that he had up to that point never been in a trench in his life.

Approximately 8 months later, on 26 September 1917, Poore again found himself commanding the battalion in the absence of the CO, this time during an engagement near Polygon Wood. While he was sitting in a shell hole talking to Second Lieutenant Casson, acting adjutant, and Second Lieutenant Colquhoun a shell burst among them, killing all three.

While not wishing to do down this officer, who had already seen prior service in the Boer War and won the DSO, I was puzzled that he was referred to as Lieutenant Colonel in the memorial in Salisbury Cathedral, given that he was referred to only as Major by Dunn, and was not the CO of the battalion.

A search of the London Gazette revealed that he was appointed temporary Lieutenant Colonel of the Royal Wiltshire (Prince of Wales Own Royal Regiment) on 11 January 1915, but that on 5 January 1917 he relinquished the temporary rank of Lieutenant Colonel "on alteration in posting". Was it usual for a bereaved family to refer to their lost relative by the highest rank attained, rather than by the rank actually held at the time of death? Even if not usual, it is perhaps understandable.

P.S. Having typed the above I thought that I should check to see whether Roger Poore had been mentioned elsewhere on the forum, and sure enough he has, in another thread which is worth reading in tandem with this one, as it supplements Dunn's account of the man, to include more detail of his service in South Africa:

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/276369-roger-alvin-poore-what-rank/#comment-2816593

[rolt968]

Am I right in thinking that he was a brother of Robert Montagu Poore, Brigadier General, who played cricket for Hampshire and South Africa (as Major RM Poore, I think)?

RM

[FROGSMILE]

On 13/10/2024 at 20:01, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

Was it usual for a bereaved family to refer to their lost relative by the highest rank attained, rather than by the rank actually held at the time of death? Even if not usual, it is perhaps understandable.

My understanding is that it was indeed (and as far as I know still is) the case that by convention an individual officer may call himself by the highest rank held (i.e. exercised) during his service, provided that he was paid for that responsibility and appointed to it by a superior authority.  There might be a minimum qualifying period, but I cannot recall**.

It was very common for young junior officers to adopt captain as their rank under similar circumstances, as it was rare that a surviving subaltern did not find himself being in command of his company (the position historically most associated with the captain rank in the infantry) at some point, assuming he was not almost immediately killed.  Such promotions could occur very quickly indeed at that level given that the average survival period for a junior infantry officer was quite short.  The very fact that you have recounted how a young second lieutenant was actually acting adjutant for a period, is a strong testament to that fact.

As has been demonstrated in the fate of Poore even a commanding officer of an infantry battalion, had a very tenuous grasp on mortality when in the front line with his battalion.  I recall now having read about Poore in Dunn’s seminal work, and in particular his verbal tics and mannerisms that seem to have been such a memorable trademark, and I thank you for the useful reminder, including especially the poignant account of his fate.

** there was also a convention whereby regular career officers were frequently promoted upon retirement from the active list up one, or sometimes even two levels, to an ‘honorary’ rank that they did not necessarily hold during their service.  This was particularly so for those who did not serve above field rank (at that time Major to full Colonel).

Edited 2 hours ago by FROGSMILE

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Thank you, Frogsmile.

I would not myself have recalled that I had read about Poore in Dunn's book save that I have read that part of the book very recently.

Most of the observations about Poore in the book are Dunn's own, but there is also a reference in a passage that he quotes from the reminiscences of another officer, Llewelyn Evans, who recounts his first impressions, including "the detached air of Major Poore". This is Evans' only reference to Poore in the passage quoted by Dunn, and might suggest that he was indifferent to, and unengaged with, what was going on around him, but that certainly doesn't appear to be the case from the rest of Dunn's description, for on12 June 1917 he says "Poore was putting some ginger into the training", on 22 June when they went up into support and the CO stayed behind he says, "Poore was in his element, active and keen, stirring up machine-gunners, trench-mortarers, everyone; his Orders were his own, and uncommon", while in the engagement in which he was to lose his life when he was again acting CO he took the initiative in developing a scheme of attack which "he was persuaded, rather than convinced" was too complicated to be practical. Maybe, therefore, the air of detachment was merely a coping mechanism.

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

"Poore was in his element, active and keen, stirring up machine-gunners, trench-mortarers, everyone; his Orders were his own, and uncommon", while in the engagement in which he was to lose his life when he was again acting CO he took the initiative in developing a scheme of attack which "he was persuaded, rather than convinced" was too complicated to be practical. Maybe, therefore, the air of detachment was merely a coping mechanism.

I often think how those TF officers with inherent imagination, cognisant of the huge responsibility that they held, must often have had periods of self doubt, and that would have been exacerbated in a regular army battalion as Poore was, so I can imagine that he might well have had such a coping mechanism.  In my own experience, I spent 8-years on the staff of the School of Infantry, and every year’s busy curriculum included separate courses for regulars and Territorials, with the latter often having only a quarter of the time (2-weeks maximum regardless of subject) to attempt to learn the same amount of information.  It was never expected that they should be able to achieve the same degree of competence, but just that the principal lessons could be learned, and the rest picked up over time and practice during weekly drills back in their own units.

Officers like Poore, even though they had some experience from South Africa, would have found it very difficult in battalion command I think, and probably did not sleep soundly at night for very much of the time.  They were after all not professional soldiers who lived and breathed the tenets of a military calling, but farmers, bankers, businessmen, and all manner of civilian occupations.  It is a testament to their character, and the assiduous application that they demonstrated, that they fared as well as they did.  I realise that you are already well aware of this, and I make these comments just as a general observation for readers of this thread. 

Edited 2 hours ago by FROGSMILE