Gallipoli.1915 star?

[L Porter]

My Grandad was at Gallipoli but I'm trying to find out why he doesn't seem to have been awarded a star medal.  Does that mean he was not at Gallipoli in 1915?

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum @L PorterWhat was his name and regiment? 

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, L Porter said:

My Grandad was at Gallipoli but I'm trying to find out why he doesn't seem to have been awarded a star medal.  Does that mean he was not at Gallipoli in 1915?

Welcome to GWF.

Might perhaps be the case of two medal rolls and two MIC ?? [Star and BWM & VM] - However, the sharing of his name and other details [military and/or civilian] may considerably help all concerned try to help you.

Wishing you the best with your enquiry.

M

Edited Wednesday at 15:45 by Matlock1418

[L Porter]

thank you.  Grandad's info: Alfred Ellis, unit Norfolk Yeomanry, Rank Private, Service no 2733, also Army Veterinary Corps, Rank Private, TT/04202,  I've been informed by Steve that Grandad, who was from Kings Lynn, wasn't in Gallipoli in 1914/15 but instead he was in Palestine,  in 1915/16.  I just don't know how I can get further information about his time out there.  Any ideas please?

[Matlock1418]

31 minutes ago, L Porter said:

Alfred Ellis, unit Norfolk Yeomanry, Rank Private, Service no 2733, also Army Veterinary Corps, Rank Private, TT/04202,

A BWM & VM meant he did not land in a ToW until after 31/12/1915 - that would seem to have been with the Norfolk Yeomanry.  And his service ended with the RAVC.

Interestingly he made an unspecified disability pension claim and Labour Corps is also marked on his pension index card [this formed in 1917]

Discharged 23.5.19 awarded 5/6 pw from 8.4.20 to 12.4.21 [the 10% degree of disability rate for a pension Class V soldier / Pte (without wife or children) under the 1919 Royal Warrant]

On the PIC are these additional numbers, 320443 and 601744 - it's not exactly clear what these are but these may be additional service numbers

M

Edited 5 hours ago by Matlock1418
corrct %

[PRC]

Hi @L Porter and welcome to the forum

The Norfolk Yeomanry were a Territorial Force unit so intended for the defence of the home islands. In peacetime most of it's members were part-timers, continuing with their normal jobs.  Individual members of the Territorial Force could opt, for extra pay, for Imperial Service. With the creation of the Territorial Force in 1908 this more envisaged another Boer War type conflict rather than the conflagration that lay ahead..

The Yeomanry along with the rest of the British Army was mobilised on the 5th August 1914, and moved to their wartime station. The Imperial Service obligation had by then changed into a Foreign Service obligation. This forced the splitting of the Regiment into a first line, (1/1st), made up of those who took the foreign service obligation, and a second line (2/1st), of those who wished to remain home service only and additional trainees. Later there would be a third line, (3/1st) to provide training and drafts to the other two. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-yeomanry-regiments-of-1914-1918/norfolk-yeomanry-the-kings-own-royal-regiment/

At that time there was no single Army number that was given to a new recruit and which stayed with them as they went through their Army Career. The Norfolk Yeomanry had it's own service number system. I've not had cause to research that many Norfolk Yeomanry man but what I can tell you is that 2728 Ben Whisker enlisted on the 22nd December 1915. While a single example isn't strong grounds to state anything with great certainly, I can see some examples in late 27 numbers that give me an inkling for a possible explanation - more work would need to be done to confirm it.

By the autumn of 1915 recruitment was drying up, yet from the National Registration sceheme in the summer of that year there was clear evidence that there were significant numbers who could be called on if conscription was introduced. In one last effort to stave that off the Group System, (aka the Derby Scheme). was introduced. It initially ran from october 1915 to the 15th December 1915, but was then extended for a short while, and then reopened for a short period again in January 1916. Under the Derby Scheme a man could enlist in the unit of his choice, serve for a day and then be discharged to the reserve to await a future mobilisation. These recruits were split into groups based on year of birth and marital status. The married men were assurred that all the single men would be called first. The stick was that there would be absolutely no choice of unit if they waited for conscription. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-group-scheme-derby-scheme/

The Territorial Force units, with their right to opt for home service only seems to have been a popular choice for older married men.

Unfortunately the changes introduced by the Military Services Act of 1916 not only included conscription, but suspended for the duration of the war the Territorial Force man's right to serve in the UK only.

When I had a quick look at the enlistment dates for some of the later 27xx numbers I can see some who enlisted in November and December 1915 interspersed with others whose service starts in March, April and May 1916 and tie in with mobilisation dates. I'm working from the roll for those who were honourably discharged during the course of the war, (mostly as a result of wounds and ill-health), so haven't checked service records. I suspect it's down to inconsistancy on the part of the clerks, with some using the date of Derby Scheme enlistment and others the date of mobilisation.

By the time you get to the 29xx numbers the date discrepancies get bigger, leading me to suspect this is the transfer in of men from other units. The 1/1st had gone out to Gallipoli as dismounted infantry and continued to serve in that role. In February 1917 the pretence of it being anything other than infantry was finally dropped and it was renamed the 12th Battalion of the Norfolk Regiment. With it taking drafts from a wider pool there was no longer a need for a 3/1st as well and that part of the Regiment was disbanded.

There was another, wider change in the Territorial Force at the start of 1917. The multitude of service numbering schemes was causing all kinds of administrative issues, and so an attempt was made to standardise it. The 12th Battalion, Norfolk Regiment were issued a number block running from 315001 to 325000 , while the 2/1st Norfolk Yeomanry were issued number block 140001 to 145000 to renumber their members and use for those joining from other Regiments \ Corps.

From what I can see in the Medal Records:-

2731 Charles W. Reeve was renumbered 320442
2735 Charles Cooper was renumbered 320444

So one of 2732 / 2733 or 2734 was renumbered 320443. Unfortunately whether that is Alfred or someone else I don't know.

1 hour ago, L Porter said:

but instead he was in Palestine,  in 1915/16.

Is that known for definate, or an assumption? There is nothing to indicate that Alfred went to Gallipoli - from his likely date of enlistment he wasn't even serving with them at the time they landed on the peninsula in October 1915 and would not have got out to serve with them before they were pulled out. They withdrew to Egypt to help defend the Suez Canal and served subsequently in the Western Derset where Turkish and German agents had been actively stirring up the tribes. I don't believe the British Army advanced into Palestine until the start of 1917.

That's probably enought to digest for now.

Cheers,
Peter