POW in Turkey

[Potter]

If I can add some sources on the treatment of POWs by the Turks:

I have an account by Pte William Robert Surgeon, a New Zealander captured at Chanuk Bair on 8 August 1915. This records the neglect on wounded men in a "punishment hospital" in Contantinople and conditions in a number of prisons and camps, including what seems to be male rape (the account is a little circumspect).

The account is in "Gallipoli: The New Zealand Story" by Christopher Pugsley.

Australian experiences (mostly very bad) are summarised in "Prisoners of War: From Gallipoli to Korea" by Patsy Adam-Smith.

The general situation seems to be that officers' treatment was reasonably whilst ORs' was extremely bad, ranging from neglect to deliberate cruelty.

[BMoorhouse]

I am not trying to provide mitigation for barbaric treatment of prisoners (eg the awful treatment of the men of the 6th Poona Division after Kut - both in the death march afterwards or in prison camps where conditions were often dire) but...

One of the factors that needs to be bortn in mind is the very high attrition rate amongst Turkish forces that were themselves marched to death on occassions. Erikson's excellent (and expensive) book - Ordered to Die - suggests that 466,759 men died of disease cf. 305,085 combat dead and missing. This suggests that they did not have particularly good support systems in place for their own troops, quite apart from the inhospitable conditions in which the men were usually fighting/stationed.

[SandraB]

Hi

Just picked up on this thread. According to the author Nigel McCrery who wrote the book "All the Kings Men", the Turks did not like to take prisoners. He writes (of the 5th Norfolks attack at Suvla, Gallipoli, 12 August 1915) - "Private Alfred Pearson of the Lynn Company, who was lying wounded by some rocks, saw his company commander Capt Pattrick, together with Sergt Ernest Beart, surrounded by Turkish soldiers. Capt Pattrick had been wounded in the leg and was bleeding profusely. The Turkish soldiers took their weapons and marched them away as prisoners-of-war, but neither man was ever seen again."

The aforementioned Sergt Ernest Beart was my great-great uncle. I would love to know how Nigel McCrery sourced Alfred Pearson's eye witness account but nevertheless each time I read it I find myself wondering over and over what the hell happened to Ernest and Capt Pattrick after they were marched away. It must have been torture for their families back home.

Sandra

[mebu]

Charles, the following may help.....whilst researching a great uncle who was 1/8 Lancs Fusiliers in the bag on 8th August at Krithia.....ended up working on the railway tunnel at Belemedick Pouranti....I found info on the web on the rail tunnel there, dug by the British...tunnel is important for rail fans.....built to connect Istanbul with Baghdad....a link to a diary of an Aussie seaman, Albert Edward Knaggs R.A.N. gave a good insight into conditions.....must have been fairly tough as my man died early in 1917...18 months in captivity. No grave, but commemorated on Bagdhad Memorial. Hope this helps, Peter.

[MartinWills]

Accounts vary, and the Mespot campaign folks were not helped by ill health compunded by long marches.

There can be little doubt but that Turkish conditions simply did not suit allied prisoners, Turkish culture & diet being one factor.

There are several threads of old about texts on captivity in Turkey which will direct you to a number of sources.

Some men received relatively good treatment in hospitals, others did not and prison camps varied widely.

Undoubtedly prisoners working on the railway through the Taurus mountains were worked hard but they were generally under the supervision of Germans engaged on building the railway and accounts seem to indicate that they were feed and treated better than many other prisoners elsewhere simply because the work they did was valued.

[Bryn]

If you can get hold of it, the following book is a record of captivity in Turkey by an Australian Light Horseman:

Halpin, J. Blood in the Mists. Macquarie Head Press, Sydney, 1934.

Jack Halpin seems to have spent a lot of time trying to provide some balance to the 'Turks as great guys' writings, and to show that this opinion was not always accurate or defensible. He wrote a series of articles on the subject for 'Reveille' magazine in which he argued that, as long as you were not defenceless, the Turks were okay. His implication is that, as soon as you were weaker than them, your troubles really began, and his book is pretty grim reading.

Articles include:

Halpin, J. 'Captives of the Turk', in Reveille RSS&AILA, NSW Branch, Sydney. 1 Mar 1934, 1 Apr 1934, 1 May 1934, 1 Jun 1934, 1 Jul 1934, p25, 26. p48. p?. p29. p15.

Halpin, J. 'Praise of the Turks. A 'Captive' in Reply', in Reveille; RSS&AILA, NSW Branch, Sydney. 1 Aug 1934, p 6.

See also:

Lushington, R. F. A Prisoner With The Turks 1915 - 1918. Simpkin, Marshall, Hamilton, Kent & Co. Ltd, London, 1923.

(Pte Lushington, 16 Bn AIF, was captured at Gallipoli).

Luscombe, L. H. The Story of Harold Earl - Australian. W. R. Smith & Paterson, Brisbane, 1970.

(Lieut. Luscombe,14 Bn AIF, was captured at Gallipoli).

Foster, J. R. Two and a half years Prisoner of War in Turkey. Jones & Hambly, Brisbane, 1919.

(Experiences of Tpr G.W. Handsley, 2 LHR, AIF during his two and a half years as POW in Turkey, as related to Sergeant J.R.Foster, the writer. He describes his experiences, hardships as a prisoner, and the cruelty of his captors).

Pye, E. Prisoner of War 31,163 Bedros M. Sharian. Fleming H. Revell, New York, 1938.

There's also a publication entitled:

The treatment of British Prisoners of War in German and Turkish Camps.

I've never seen it; don't know the author, or what it contains, but I know it it exists (for example in the National Archives, Victorian Office, Australia. MP367/1 Control symbol 567/9/52).

Regarding the 'non-taking of prisoners' at Gallipoli, this has been remarked on in numerous accounts, including by Charles Bean, the official Australian historian:

'As on other occasions, very few of the wounded left in Turkish hands survived. Some were shot or bayoneted. A German officer, seeing the Turkish soldiers kicking a number of wounded men and preparing to roll them over a cliff on the hillside, stepped in and saved their lives. Two small parties, under Lieutenants Luscombe of the 14th and Youden of the 15th - both of whom were wounded, the latter mortally - held on in the gullies on the far side of the spur, ignorant of any order to withdraw, and were captured.' (Bean Vol. 2 p663).

Luscombe was captured, but following is an account of the death of Lieutenant Fred Youden and his men in the tangle of gullies somewhere out near Hill 100:

"Sergt. Robert Hunter, 451, of the same Regt. C. Coy. now In Hanworth Red X Hosp. Middlesex, (home address Lower Kent Rd. Maryborough, Queensland, Australia.) who is described to us as an intelligent man, states: 'On Aug. 6-8 1915 at Sari Bair, Gallipoli, Lt. Youden was out off with a party of about 26, who were forced to surrender. The German officer ordered them to be stripped, laid face downwards and shot. One man was not killed, was carried in and told the tale, dying 2 hours later.' "

Accounts in these and other writings (diaries, previously-mentioned publications, etc.) would convince many readers that it was not just neglect that prisoners suffered once captured by the Ottoman forces, but also, in many cases, abject cruelty.

[joseph]

Hi,

Thanks folks the expertise out there is astounding I can now work out what the likely outcome of the 6th East Yorkshires was on Tekke Tebe.

131 men were posted as missing and eye witness reports, tell of seeing them in groups, most never returned to the regiment.

Regards charles

[MartinWills]

Many of the POWs who died in captivity were concentrated from small POW camp cemeteries to Baghdad North Gate cemetery. There are a number buried in Istanbul at Haidar PAsha Cemetery.

[Brigantian]

Charles

John Still, the adjutant of the 6th East Yorkshires was captured at the same time as Colonel Moore. He survived and later wrote A Prisoner in Turkey in which he describes his experiences of captivity – they were not positive. The book contains an account of his capture and Moore’s death:

We reached the point where the ravine ended, and in the scrub ahead of us we saw a number of men who fired upon us. For a moment we thought they were our own, firing in ignorance. Then we saw that they were Turks. We had run into the back of an enemy battalion which held the lower slopes against our supports. They had crossed the range at a point lower than that we had attacked, and had cut in behind our climbing force. We could do nothing but surrender.

When we held up our hands some dozen or more of the enemy charged towards us with fixed bayonets. And we began to experience that strange mixture of nature, so characteristic of the Turks, from which we and our fellows were to suffer much in the years to come.

The man who took possession of me searched my pockets and annexed everything of military use except my revolver, which had fallen out of my, hand a minute before, when I had been knocked down by a bullet that glanced off a rock on to my leg. He took out my purse and saw that it contained five sovereigns in gold (more than I have ever seen since) and a good deal in silver. Then he gave it back to me, and apparently told me to keep it. The pay of a Turkish private is, or was, ten piastres a month, nominally about one shilling and eightpence. My captor was a good Turk. Later on, when I came to know how rare good Turks were, I was filled with marvel.

Of those taken with me, one was not molested; one was fired at from five yards' distance, missed, and quietly captured; one was beaten and fired at. Thank God the man who fired at him hit the man who was beating him and broke his wrist. The fourth, my Colonel, was bayoneted. Then, for the moment their fury ceased. I was permitted to tend the Colonel. He did not seem to suffer pain at all, only to be intensely thirsty. He drank the whole of the contents of my water-bottle as well as his own. They even allowed me to carry him on my back; and on my back the Colonel died. May he rest in peace! He was a brave man, and a good friend to me.

Regards

Mark

[joseph]

Mark,

Thank you for that, a graphic account, now to find a copy of "A prisoner in Turkey" I have seen reference to a letter but not a book. Along with all the other information it paints a grim picture, he must have been a strong man to come through the ordeal.

Regards Charles

[Bryn]

The colonel mentioned by Mark would be Lieutenant Colonel Henry Glanville Allen, CO 6th Bn. The East Yorkshire Regiment.

Mentioned in Despatches. Born 28th October 1864 at Misterton, Lincs., the son of Henry Dawson Moore. Wife: Margaret of Dorset. WG. Gall.5. 2nd Lieutenant 1891, Lieutenant 1893, Captain 1898, Major 1908. Served with the Nile Expedition 1898. Bayoneted after surrendering (K.I.A.) 9th August 1915 (11th August 1915) aged 50 years. Comm., Green Hill Cemetery, Suvla.

Photo and biography in de Ruvigny Vol.1 p 258

[Brigantian]

Charles,

There is a copy on Abebooks for sale at £150. This seems expensive - I paid £60 for a copy about a year ago. The day after it arrived a friend, knowing I was looking for one, produced a copy borrowed from a local library via an inter library loan – might be worth exploring as a zero cost alternative.

Bryn

Didn’t realise Col Moore was in de Ruvigny. I’ve looked it up and found the entry with his photograph - thanks for that.

Regards

Mark

[joseph]

Mark,

Not often on the ball but went to the library this afternoon and they will get me a copy, even offered to get the relevant passage faxed through. The only public service I have come across recently that are on the up!!. Thanks Bryn, now need to find de ruvigny.

Regards Charles

[Icenitribe]

Just been reading through all of the postings regarding the treatment of P.O.W's by the Turks.

I am trying to find out more info regarding my Gt. Grandfather, GEORGE E. SPINK, who lived in Gt. Yarmouth, Norfolk. From what I have discovered he may have been in Gallipoli.

I came across a listing in the medals awarded documents, which I am 99% sure is him. It lists the following information: RFA. Bmbr. Regimental No. 57057. Theatre of war first served in: 5a- Asiatic. 17/11/14. P.O.W Turkey 29/4/16. Dead. There are also other serial numbers which I don't know what they refer to: E/648491/1 and EF/94360(4).

I also found a listing in the Commonwealth Graves Commission of him being buried in the Bagdad North Gate Cemetery, grave No: XXI.Q.38.

Can anyone offer any help/advice on more information regarding him, or the regiment he served in? I seem to have hit a dead end myself. I assume he was in the Norfolk regiment.

I am also trying to find more info about his sons, GEORGE ROBERT SPINK (my grandfather), and JAMES H. SPINK. My father said that George R. was a P.O.W and bayonetted in both feet after trying to escape. Me died 26 July 1936, but can't find any information regarding him.

I would appreciate any help that can be offered.

Many thanks,

Icenitribe

[Gibbo]

RFA means Royal Field Artillery and Bombardier is the equivalent rank to Corporal in the artillery. 29/4/16 is the date that Kut surrendered so he was almost certainly captured there. 17/11/14 as entry into a theatre of war implies that he was in the Mesopotamian campign from the start. That would suggest that he was a pre-war regular.

The division that was captured at Kut was the 6th Poona Division of the Indian Army; as with all of the Indian Army, most of its artillery was British rather than Indian, a measure introduced for security reasons after the Indian Mutiny of 1857. As of 1/12/14, the 6th Poona Division included the 10th Brigade, RFA.

The best website for information on researching a British soldier of WWI, and also for the structure and campaigns of the British Army of WWI, is The Long, Long Trail, run by Chris Baker. This forum was originally an offshoot of that website.

[Icenitribe]

Thanks Gibbo for the valuable information. It has given me some more directions in which to continue my search. The more I read, the more I am horrified at the terrible things these poor men, including it seems my Gt. Grandfather, had to witness and endure. Lets hope that through the efforts of people such as the members of this excellent website, that history is preserved as a memorial to all experienced the horrors of war.

If anyone else has any info which they think can be of any help I would be very grateful. Thank you

[healdav]

Get "The Road to En-Dor" for a graphic account of life in a POW camp.

And didn't some of the prisoners get there own back. Incredible story.

[Davidwhitman]

Hi

If anyone is interested in a PDF copy of the British White Paper "The Treatment of British POWs in Turkey" (1918), just send me an email at dwhitman124@gmail.com

The Postwar trials held in Istanbul in 1919/20 convicted Turk's who were responsible for the mistreatment of of Allied POWs as well as those responsible for the Armenian genocide. I am not a aware if an English translation of the trials exist.

David