Bugles in the First World War

[HERITAGE PLUS]

This US site may be of interest for those interested in Bugles in general.

http://www.tapsbugler.com/index.html

This photo shows the engraving on a Higham made Euphonium of 1891.

Dave

[BMoorhouse]

David,

As to use of bugles - one was used by Lt Peard of the 7th Somersets (following the deployment of gas) in a trench raid on 12th June 1916.

After he had been shot in the leg by a machinegun, and after taking stock of the situation he said;

"There was no sign of the wire cutters or the remainder of the party. There was no hope of the raiding party doing any good. I therefore blew my horn to signal for the party to make its way back to the trenches. I did not appreciate the humour of the situation at the time, but I have often thought since what a ridiculous figure I must have cut sitting in a shell hole up to my waist in water and blowing a horn. A revised version of Little Boy Blue!"

Brendon.

[PhilB]

Would that have been a hunting horn or bugle? Phil B

[AndrewThornton]

The 1st Battalion of The North Staffordshire Regiment used bugles to sound the regimental call and the charge during their attack at Groenenberg Farm on 31st July 1917 during Third Ypres. All of the drummers became casualties, but Drummer Dimbelow's bugle can still be found in the Museum of The Staffordshire Regiment. He was shot in the mouth as he sounded the calls but lived until 1976.

The incident is also mentioned in Bernard Martin's book "Poor Bloody Infantry", although his description of his commanding officer, Lieutenant-Colonel Pope as being a "dug-out|" is very innaccurate. Pope's rationale for using bugles to sound these calls was to inspire his men as they made their attack and to remind them that they were still a regular battalion in spite of the majority of the unit being made up of wartime volunteers and conscripts.

Vyvyan Vavasour Pope was 26 in 1917, a holder of the D.S.O., M.C. and was mentioned in despatches seven times during the Great War. He lost an arm on 21st March 1918, but remained in the army after the war with the Tank Corps, in which he became a leading developer of armoured warfare tactics and doctrine. He was serving as a Lieutenant-General in the Western Desert when he was killed on 5th October 1941 when his aircraft was shot down. Pope is buried at Cairo War Cemetery.

[Chris Noble]

Well tin tin, 2 survived. The other is owned by a forum member, try the search facility.

This is the article.

[Chris Noble]

and the text.

Regards, Chris.

[tintin1689]

Thank you very much Chris - I am always interested inany band stories

Here is the jist of my info from the book "The Leeds City Police 1836-1974"

At the April 1924 meeting of the Leeds Corporation Colonel Sir Edward Allan Brotherton and other officers of the former 15th (Leeds) Battalion, The West Yorkshire Regiment donatd the band instruments and sporting trophies of the unit to the City.

The trophies were placed in the charge of the Libraries and Arts Committee and the instuments used to form the Police Band. To join the band it was necessary to have prior service in a regular army band.

In 1936 the instruments were destroyed in a fire at Heptons Clothing factory where the bad practiced

As an aside 29 members of the Leeds Police were killed in the Great War and members of the force won 2 VCs, 1 DSO, 1 MC, 2 DCMs, 10 MM (one of which as to the officer who won the MC, surely an uusual double) 1 OBE and 2 MSM plus a Croix de Guerre (awarded to one of the VCs - again unusual as he won his VC on the NW Frontier winning the CdG after arrival in France for an unrelated incidence)

[Chris Noble]

Interesting that Tintin.

Sat here thinking about the thread, Hollingworth was captured during the war. Unless he took the bugle home or aquired it after the war, one can only speculate.

As in the previous thread, i believe, without searching the site, they were purchased from Kitchens of Leeds.

Ironically, i now work for Burtons, who i believe, absorbed Hepworths tailors at some point. Small world don't you think!

Regards, Chris.

[bcerha]

David ,

Just had a look at the bugles on e-bay , 7332483352 is a good example of regulation type , german silver or plated mouthpiece with the collar over the inlet .

7332726741 ia good example of a repro with a skinny turned mouthpiece and no collar .

The collar stops the pipe splitting .

Chris

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just to bring this subject full circle - I bought ebay item no 7332483352 (see attached picture) and it arrived yesterday. I am absolutely delighted with it and it lives up to billing entirely. Now all I have to do is learn to get some decent notes out of it and it will be perfect.

Many thanks to all who contributed to this thread. Once again your amazing range of knowledge has proved invaluable.

regards

David

[John S]

For some time now I have considered trying to source and buy a bugle/trumpet with ‘proven’ WW1 connections and one that could have seen ‘action’ so that it might once again be played in Belgium.

This thread gave some advice but the pictures are currently missing.

Recently two items on e-bay attracted my attention. The first item has been sold but this is (hopefully) a link to the second item.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/WORLD-WAR-1-ROYAL-SC...1QQcmdZViewItem

Not suggesting this is not a pucker item but how does it compare with the official bugle.

Obviously the dates were added post event and I guess at the same time as the other items were added.

Could it be that it a commemorative item given to the buglers involved. (neither are listed in SDGW)

Can any one shed any light on this?

Regards

John

[Chief_Chum]

I have a superb bugle marked "2nd Salford" and "16 LF" which I was given years ago by an elderly neighbour who's husband had picked it up as a souvenir at Thiepval (I don't know what he was himself but he wasn't 16th LF).

It is pretty battered but was certainly used in action. Curiously, my business partner has another bugle to the same battalion which he has just had restored. His is marked with the details of the benefactor who presented the battalion with most of their instruments - full details in Michael Stedman's excellent book on the Salford Pals.

By coincidence we have just made a programme for BBC1 about the 2nd Salford Pals for the 90th anniversary of the battle next year...

Cheers,

Taff

[Guest C729LEE]

Chaps

While working in Utrecht, a number of years ago I picked up a bugle. It was the only military item on a small stall in a flea market. I always thought with all the cheap nasty repro's coming out of India, it would probably be one of those. It is a bit battered and has seen action with me and the local cricket team on trips to Headingley etc. On the other hand it maybe the real mcCoy. Some of the experts may be able to shed a little light. It is similar to the some of the ones shown, but has a Guards Divison Machine Gun Corps cap badge braised to the wider end on top. You know the badge, star shaped with crossed bullets.

Lee

[Matt Dixon]

What a fascinating thread this has turned into. I thought the following might be of interest, taken from this years school magazine, from All Saints School, Bloxham in Oxfordshire:

" John Gatton writes 'I was somewhat taken aback when, after a recent visit to Bloxham, I learnt that following the stand down of the School CCF Band, the school band instruments had become 'surplus to stock'!

I well remember sounding the Last Post each evening under the Memorial Gateway in Summer or in the Inner Quad in Winter. At its' best one might stretch the duty to 15 minutes , thereby missing some rather dreary moments of Prep. At its' worse having to face the sly grins from ones' fellow pupils when the last high note turned out to sound more like something being strangled.

After a few well chosen words with a couple of staff members, one the bugles was traced and I gratefully took possession. But its' condition was shocking. I have played "Mess Rugger" , but thsi was nothing compared to the treatment this instrument had been subjected to. Fortunately a makers name could still be seen stamped on its' side. Could they still be in existance? They certainly were: George Potter and Co in Aldershot, appointed 'Military Musical Instrument Makers' by the authority of [no less] HRH The Duke of Connaught since 172. And still going strong.

It has taken a full 6 months to have the bugle properly restored and the unforgiveable dents knocked out, re-tuned, re-silvered and given fresh cords, black and white in my time. But I have discovered there is a much more poignant message , one that is much more than mere sentiment, the restoration revealed an inscription:

IN THE MEMORY OF THE OLD BLOXHAMISTS WHO FELL IN THE GREAT WAR 1914-1919

These band instruments are sacred memorials to our fellow old boys. For "They shall not grow old....." These instruments and the drums have to be preserved.

I am now left wondering can anyone reveal anything else about the events surrounding these signal items? Was there a trust fund set up to purchase them, or did the parents of the fallen contribute?

One thing is certain, one bugle at least has been preserved for all time, which will, I hope be of some comfort to all those OB's and those who still remain at the school."

A touching story, and one which makes me feel proud, that I am not the only one who wants the memories to be kept alive.

[Guest Eagle077]

I take it that the soldering of a regimental badge onto a bugle to make it look more kosher is a post war practice? Phil B

I started this discussion. The bugle in question does not have a random regimental badge soldered on. The body of the bugle appears to be a coppery color (but I would suspect an alloy). The regimental badge is brass and about 1 1/2 " in length. The badge is cast (looks like an invetment casting - nice detail). The "23" is neatly incised into the badge. It looks quite official.

[Guest Surferstick]

Just a tidbit to add from the perspective of buglers in the CEF....

My grandfather was a bugler in the great war - 58th battalion of the CEF. His enlistment papers state "bugler" but we know from the few stories he would tell us after the war, that he served primarily as a stretcher bearer. The connection became clear to me thanks to the the book "Second to None" by Kevin Sackleton - a book about the 58th battalion - which states that "upon shipping out from training in England to the war in France, the bandsmen put away their instruments and became stretcher bearers."

Given that, I don't *think* (could be wrong of course - I am no expert) buglers were employed in the CEF to bugle during the war, however, some music-related activity was retained, as the only period photograph I have of him in uniform (taken 1917-18) show him holding a trumpet, and we know when they were on relief, the band was known to play...

If wrong, please let me know.

[Guest Rony]

John S Dec 1 2005 10.37 Questioned the orthenticity of WW1 bugles. I have 6 bugles of precisely the same pattern with precisely the same markings buglers No and name. These include bugles from KYOLI,Forresters,Blackwatch,The Kings Own

GordonHighlanders and Leicestershire. I purchased these in an Antique shop in York in the mid 60's . I believe I paid 50 pounds each. At the time I was interested in making a collection but when I returned for more the shop was sold out. The story from the dealer was that someone had seen the oppotuity to buy a job lot and was only releasing them slowly on the market. Ihave never seen any others since.

I wonder what the forum thinks of their authenticity. I am quite proud of them and they remain very visual in my house.

[Eceabat]

Hi Pals,

On topic but away from the Western Front somewhat. I have seen two bugles found on the Gallipoli battlefields, one near Walkers Ridge in the ANZAC sector and the other from Suvla. Sadly the Suvla bugle had been brought up by a plough and was badly crushed, but the one from ANZAC was in much better condition, though it was missing the mouthpiece and had what looked like a bullet or shrapnel gash in the bell. Given where it was found, well behind what became the front line, it is possible the bugle was dropped on the first day of fighting (though this is just conjecture on my part).

I also know of one Australian, Private Fred Ashton, who was captured on the first day of the landing, who was a bugler with the 11th Battalion AIF. In some official papers he is described as Bugler Ashton. Sadly, in his letters or post war notes never mentioned what happened to his bugle, whether he used it in action or even landed on the Peninsula with it.

Cheers

Bill

[grantsmil]

Here is a contempory record of bugles used on Gallipoli.

The diary entry on the 10th of May, 1915, is interesting, indicating that the Turks tired to confuse their enemy by making false calls

http://www.grantsmilitaria.com/garrett/html/may1915.htm

[Madmeg]

I have a bugle which is believd to have belonged to my Great Uncle Joseph Simmonds. He joined up as a bugler underage. There is a photgraph of him holding it (in uniform).

This bugle is stamped Ballbeavon & Co London. It is quite small and a different shape to the one in the above picture (but it is also in need of a clean!) It is well dented and bashed about.

Is anyone aware of the maker? Am I right in thinking it is probably Uncle Joe's bugle or is the makers name wrong

Thanks

[ss002d6252]

9 minutes ago, Madmeg said:

I have a bugle which is believd to have belonged to my Great Uncle Joseph Simmonds. He joined up as a bugler underage. There is a photgraph of him holding it (in uniform).

This bugle is stamped Ballbeavon & Co London. It is quite small and a different shape to the one in the above picture (but it is also in need of a clean!) It is well dented and bashed about.

Is anyone aware of the maker? Am I right in thinking it is probably Uncle Joe's bugle or is the makers name wrong

Thanks

Ball, Beavon & Co were instrument sellers for military instruments - https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Ball,_Beavon_and_Co

 

Craig