Guest tintin Posted 18 August , 2003 Share Posted 18 August , 2003 I have the Black Battalion book - it is very good, much more than a battalion history it follows blacks in Canadian Forces back to the early 19th Century Many blacks in the US Colored Troops in the ACW were Canadians who came to help their enslaved brothers The first Canadian VC was a black sailor at Lucknow in the Indian Mutiny There are many pictures of black soldiers in different units of CEF, including a Highlander Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted 18 August , 2003 Share Posted 18 August , 2003 William Hall, the Black Nova Scotian, was I think, the third Canadian VC winner. First came Lieut.Alexander Dunn, 11th Hussars, Balaclava 1854; then Surgeon H.T.Reade, 61st Foot, Indian Mutiny 1857; and finally William Hall, RN, Indian Mutiny (two months after Reade). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted 18 August , 2003 Share Posted 18 August , 2003 A quick check indicates that Hall actually had his VC gazetted (1859) before Reade did (1861) although Reade's act of valout took place two months before that of Hall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 19 September , 2003 Share Posted 19 September , 2003 An article concerning racism in football, including material on professional player Walter Tull, appears in today's local paper, the Northampton Chronicle & Echo. Please follow this link http://www.northamptontoday.co.uk/ViewArti...rticleID=661903 It conatins this snippet of news: "Trainspotting author Irvine Welsh is said to be in talks with Tull's chief historian, and actor Nicholas Bailey, best known as Dr Trueman in EastEnders, wants to be involved in a film of Tull's life..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
182 CEF Posted 20 September , 2003 Share Posted 20 September , 2003 I posted this awhile ago. it concerns a Black soldier Heres one for the older set. George St. Pierre Brooks was born in Jan 1840 From 1861 until he was Captured in early 1865 he was a Body Servant to Capt. Scofield CSA, For the last 3 Months of the war he looked after the Horses of the 7th Ohio Cav (USA, the unit that captured him). In 1865/66 He ran foot reaces in P.T. Barnums shows ( he ran 100 yards in 9 3/4 seconds. He later joined the " Fisk Jubilee Singers" while there he there gave a Command Performance before Queen Victoria. After this he has assorted jobs until he moved to Manitoba. In 1917 he approached an Army recruiter (CEF) and stated his age as 75. He was told that if he would state he was 40 he would be accepted. He did so and became a cook and served in France. In 1944 he bagan living at the Deer Lodge Military Hospital. In 1946 while visiting veterans Viscount Montgomery hailed Brooks as a "real Soldier" Brooks died in 1948 and is Buried in Winnipegs Brookside Cemetery, of course in the Military section. Referance. Winnipeg Free Press, Jan 5 1938 also May 7 1948 Canadian Dept of Defence Veterans Affairs New Release May 22 1946 Dean Owen Whitby Ontario " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hussar Posted 21 September , 2003 Share Posted 21 September , 2003 This link takes you to the online copy of 'Scotts Official History of the American Negro in the World War' http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/comment/Sc...ott/ScottTC.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 26 September , 2003 Share Posted 26 September , 2003 I have spent most of today reading through microfilms of newspapers, in search of a photo of the Fiji 3rd Battalion, as yet unfound, but did come across a photo of some of the Sth African Labour corps dancing. It was in the Auckland Weekly News August 30, 1917, but presumably was taken from some publication overseas, maybe the War Illustrated, some time earlier, if anyone is interested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordac Posted 18 October , 2003 Share Posted 18 October , 2003 I have the Black Battalion book - it is very good, much more than a battalion history it follows blacks in Canadian Forces back to the early 19th Century Many blacks in the US Colored Troops in the ACW were Canadians who came to help their enslaved brothers Hi tintin: Just finished reading 'The Black Battalion 1916-1920: Canada's Best Kept Military Secret' by Calvin W. Rusk. It was a real eye opener regarding Canadian racial attitudes at the turn of the last century! I was surprised to read that 163 black Americans came north to join the No. 2 Construction Battalion. I've been puzzled by the following quote from page 18 in the book: "It seems that Canadian and American authorities entered into some sort of arrangement to facilitate the enlistment of Black Americans into the Canadian Army, even though the United States did not enter the war until April 1917." How were these men recruited? Were there CEF enlistment offices in the US? Paul, you might be interested in the following list of men who joined the No. 2 Construction Battalion from your home state: Pte. Robert Garth, Louisville Pte. Stanley Hamilton, Moysville Pte. George Harall, Paducak Pte. Percy Stewart, Stanford Pte. John Bennett Tivis, Richmond Pte. Ben Trice, Pembroke Pte. Archer Walton, Louisville Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nshighlander Posted 19 October , 2003 Share Posted 19 October , 2003 Hi Mordac No 2 Construction was found in my home town of Pictou.When I get back I `ll take a pic of the monument.Also a good friend of mine.Her grandfather was the CO.Col Dan Sutherland.He was from River John.I`ll post some pic asap. Cheers Dave I must of been sleeping to miss this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lesley Posted 19 October , 2003 Share Posted 19 October , 2003 Whilst going through court martial registers at the PRO yesterday I noticed that whilst white soldiers recieved imprisonment or field punishment for their offences members of the Nigerian corp received lashes - the more "serious" the offence the more they were whipped! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 19 October , 2003 Share Posted 19 October , 2003 The Aborigines were under Aussie law not citizens and as such could not vote or serve in the armed forces. But as stated many did. Many were enlisted because they were not so called full blood but of half caste. So they were not all the black. There were a small number of full blood enlisted and only late in the war. Numbers differ but I don't think the were any more then hand full of full bloods in the AIF and maybe two hundred of half caste. But these are only an informed guess. S.B Did any Australian Aborigines become officers? Maybe more likely in WW2 than in WW1? By WW2 there was at least one officer in the Australian Army who was actually a New Zealand Maori. I have seen a photo of him, and he is old enough to have also served in WW1. Just wondering why a New Zealand "man of colour" was in the 2AIF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 19 October , 2003 Share Posted 19 October , 2003 Who was he? I have noticed some Maori names in the WW1 nominal roll of Australia As a point of interest, there were 5 men from NZ , all " copper", "mulatto", or "black", who served in the Union Navy in the American Civil War 1861-65. I think they had been captured by the Confederate ship SHENANDOAH which rampaged around the Pacific whaling grounds, capturing 25 whaling vessels. It was then captured by a Union ship, and presumably the captives joined up in the Union navy. None of these men were black-they were probably full or half maori, although being adults in 1861 means you were born in the 1830s/40s, and there were not that many Europeans who were or had been living in NZ at that date, to father offspring! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 19 October , 2003 Share Posted 19 October , 2003 Who was he? I have noticed some Maori names in the WW1 nominal roll of Australia As a point of interest, there were 5 men from NZ , all " copper", "mulatto", or "black", who served in the Union Navy in the American Civil War 1861-65. I think they had been captured by the Confederate ship SHENANDOAH which rampaged around the Pacific whaling grounds, capturing 25 whaling vessels. It was then captured by a Union ship, and presumably the captives joined up in the Union navy. None of these men were black-they were probably full or half maori, although being adults in 1861 means you were born in the 1830s/40s, and there were not that many Europeans who were or had been living in NZ at that date, to father offspring! I am going to have to give you a name later, unless someone else knows. I will soon be moving and most of my stuff is packed away. I was reading about the "Dunera", which was a ship that took Italian and German/Austrian internees from England to Australia in the summer of 1940, when I came across him. I have a feeling that the book was called something like "The Dunera Scandal" by Cyril Pearl. If my memory is correct there is a full paged photo of the Maori officer in Australian service in this book. If I am wrong I will have to track the name down from my papers after I move. The Maori was an officer with some sort of Employment or Works Company who tried to recruit internees into the Army. IIRC he did not have a lot of success, as many of the internees had been beaten up and robbed on the voyage. Also, most/all had had their suitcases looted by the armed guard. Some British soldiers were c/m as a result. However, one of the worst culprits was not, possibly because he had a WW1 VC. He died a year or two later and is buried in Hoylake, Cheshire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevebec Posted 19 October , 2003 Share Posted 19 October , 2003 Mate, As far as I know there were no officers of native extraction in the Army. Not that any would have made it general knowage at that time anyway. Some of the officer class still had a bit of pom (British upper class) in them. The bloke you may mean was Reg Saunders, he was the first Native officer in our army. He was prom 2/Lt in 1943/44. As far as I know he was all aboriginal. He went on the command a company in Korea and was decorted with the 3rd Bn in that war. He retired after a long service, I served with his Grandson (Brad) at times during my Twenty two years in service, I believe the grandson now works in Aboriginal affairs last I seen him. Chris, If you get a chance check out the Army Service record of Byron Edward Victor Dufty (Yes thats DUFTY) alais John Moir in the Aust National Archives. The document, why he was returned to Australia is interesting. He was shown as a Maori having served in the 2nd Auckland Bn. S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 19 October , 2003 Share Posted 19 October , 2003 Mate, As far as I know there were no officers of native extraction in the Army. Not that any would have made it general knowage at that time anyway. Some of the officer class still had a bit of pom (British upper class) in them. The bloke you may mean was Reg Saunders, he was the first Native officer in our army. He was prom 2/Lt in 1943/44. As far as I know he was all aboriginal. He went on the command a company in Korea and was decorted with the 3rd Bn in that war. He retired after a long service, I served with his Grandson (Brad) at times during my Twenty two years in service, I believe the grandson now works in Aboriginal affairs last I seen him. Chris, If you get a chance check out the Army Service record of Byron Edward Victor Dufty (Yes thats DUFTY) alais John Moir in the Aust National Archives. The document, why he was returned to Australia is interesting. He was shown as a Maori having served in the 2nd Auckland Bn. S.B Steve As stated above, my reference stuff is packed away, so this is all from memory. As soon as I am able I will get on to it, that is unless someone else has a copy of "The Dunera Scandal". Do you have a photo of Reg Saunders, in slouch hat? I might (only might) recognise the photo. The 1943/44 date seems a little late for the man recruiting internees who arrived in Australia in the last 3 or 4 months of 1940 though. Of course, it could just be that it was 2 or 3 years before the recruiting attempts were made? Will get back to you on thisw in due course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevebec Posted 20 October , 2003 Share Posted 20 October , 2003 Mate, If I remember he was on the same Officers course as Diver Derrick (who later won the VC with the 2/48Bn) and that was after the 9th Div return to Australia from the El Amain battle and from fighting in New Guinea were Derrick won the VC in 1943. So that would make it 1944. I don't have a photo to hand but there are a few around. As for Reg Saunders service history I am don't know about his earlier service as a soldier. I believe his brother or first cousin was KIA in New Guinea during 1942/43. S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 25 October , 2003 Share Posted 25 October , 2003 Mate, As far as I know there were no officers of native extraction in the Army. Not that any would have made it general knowage at that time anyway. Some of the officer class still had a bit of pom (British upper class) in them. The bloke you may mean was Reg Saunders, he was the first Native officer in our army. He was prom 2/Lt in 1943/44. As far as I know he was all aboriginal. He went on the command a company in Korea and was decorted with the 3rd Bn in that war. He retired after a long service, I served with his Grandson (Brad) at times during my Twenty two years in service, I believe the grandson now works in Aboriginal affairs last I seen him. Chris, If you get a chance check out the Army Service record of Byron Edward Victor Dufty (Yes thats DUFTY) alais John Moir in the Aust National Archives. The document, why he was returned to Australia is interesting. He was shown as a Maori having served in the 2nd Auckland Bn. S.B Steve/Christine I remembered that a friend of mine also has a copy of he "Dunera Scandal" book, and got him to email a couple of pages. The man in question was an Edward Renate Mugunga Broughton. He served in the NZEF in WW1 and the 2AIF and Militia in WW2. I have posed some text about him, his military service and photo, in the "A Place to Play" section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 25 October , 2003 Share Posted 25 October , 2003 Thanks, Beppo, He sounds really interesting Here are his NZ details Surname BROUGHTON Given Name Edward Renata Muhunga Category Nominal Roll Vol. 1 Regimental Number 16/518 Rank Sergeant Body or Draft First Maori Unit or Regiment B Company Marital Status S Last NZ Address Civil Service Club Ballance St Wellington Next of Kin Title Mrs Atiria Next of Kin Surname BROUGHTON Next of Kin Relationship Mother Next of Kin Address Fernhill Hawkes Bay Surname BROUGHTON Given Name Edward Renata Muhunga Category Nominal Roll Vol. 2 Regimental Number 16/518 Rank 2nd Lieut Next of Kin Title Mrs Atiria Next of Kin Surname BROUGHTON Next of Kin Relationship Mother Next of Kin Address Fernhill Hawkes Bay Roll Roll 41 Page Page 40 Occupation Landbroker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 25 October , 2003 Share Posted 25 October , 2003 Thanks, Beppo, He sounds really interesting Here are his NZ details Surname BROUGHTON Given Name Edward Renata Muhunga Category Nominal Roll Vol. 1 Regimental Number 16/518 Rank Sergeant Body or Draft First Maori Unit or Regiment B Company Marital Status S Last NZ Address Civil Service Club Ballance St Wellington Next of Kin Title Mrs Atiria Next of Kin Surname BROUGHTON Next of Kin Relationship Mother Next of Kin Address Fernhill Hawkes Bay Surname BROUGHTON Given Name Edward Renata Muhunga Category Nominal Roll Vol. 2 Regimental Number 16/518 Rank 2nd Lieut Next of Kin Title Mrs Atiria Next of Kin Surname BROUGHTON Next of Kin Relationship Mother Next of Kin Address Fernhill Hawkes Bay Roll Roll 41 Page Page 40 Occupation Landbroker Hi Christine Thanks for that, as you say Captain Broughton does sound very interesting. I wonder what the Russian unit he served with was, and where exactly? I am still wondering why a Maori would join the 2AIF/Militia? I might be completely wrong here, and if I am making a wrong assumption I apologise in advance, but I certainly get the impression that the non European was not as highly regarded in Australia as in New Zealand. For example, as I understand it, an individual government supplied details to the CWGC. If you check the CWGC details for "Australian" and "Civilian" and put the date "1939" into the correct field, as well as a couple of asterisks in the name field, you will come up with no less than 35 "native" policemen, mostly from the Royal Papuan Constabulary, who have a date of death given as being "between " 03/09/1939 - 31/12/1947"!!! Did they really not know, or was nine years one way or the other not regarded as being important? Surely these policemen were being paid a salary, or a pension was being paid to their family? Beppo Sapone (ducking swiftly behind the sand bags!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevebec Posted 25 October , 2003 Share Posted 25 October , 2003 Good question, I have a Mate doing reseach on soldiers from the PNG BN plus other native units during the war. He has had a lot of trouble finding details on these men. Most of the reasons is not lack of australian records, its there own records. They (NG natives) were not the best record keepers, many of the men were not literate and most couldn't talk english only pigion or their own dialete. "Now this fella a long time you" mite sound confussing to you but to me its different. Also should I add many police/natives were lost in Jap occupied areas and there date of death was never known and only inquiried about once whites arrived back in many areas post war. I surpose like many WWI soldiers we may never know the full story. S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 26 October , 2003 Share Posted 26 October , 2003 Beppo, Where are you? If you are in NZ you can request one free copy per year of a soldier's file, from nzdf archives, but I've already exhausted my quota this year, otherwise I would get a copy of Broughton's. If you are overseas you have to pay. The email address is nzdfpersonnelarchives@paradise.net.nz. However there may be other ways of finding out about him. I'll investigate some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 26 October , 2003 Share Posted 26 October , 2003 If you get a chance check out the Army Service record of Byron Edward Victor Dufty (Yes thats DUFTY) alais John Moir in the Aust National Archives. The document, why he was returned to Australia is interesting. He was shown as a Maori having served in the 2nd Auckland Bn. Well, after ploughing through all those 113 pages, I wonder why he bothered to join the army! He obviously did not enjoy it! Did he actually do any fighting? He seems to have spent most of his time AWOL, in hospital or in jail! As for the comments, no comment! I can't identify him in NZ , there are several John Moirs, one from the general area, and several Duftys in the Thames area. Interesting that he claimed, as Dufty, to have been born on Norfolk island. What's the biggest file you have found? This is pretty big- 113 pages! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 26 October , 2003 Share Posted 26 October , 2003 Beppo, Where are you? If you are in NZ you can request one free copy per year of a soldier's file, from nzdf archives, but I've already exhausted my quota this year, otherwise I would get a copy of Broughton's. If you are overseas you have to pay. The email address is nzdfpersonnelarchives@paradise.net.nz. However there may be other ways of finding out about him. I'll investigate some. Christine Thanks for that. I am from England, rather than new Zealand. I have noted the address and will probably 'chase up' the broughton papers once I am moved and settled. Any other ideas you can think of would be most welcome. Where does the info' you are posting come from? Is it a site, or a CD? I have some New Zealander's items I will want to find out about in due course. A pair to a member of the NZRB and a fair number of WW1 New Zealand identity discs. Is similar stuff available for the 2 NZEF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 26 October , 2003 Share Posted 26 October , 2003 Good question, I have a Mate doing reseach on soldiers from the PNG BN plus other native units during the war. He has had a lot of trouble finding details on these men. Most of the reasons is not lack of australian records, its there own records. They (NG natives) were not the best record keepers, many of the men were not literate and most couldn't talk english only pigion or their own dialete. "Now this fella a long time you" mite sound confussing to you but to me its different. Also should I add many police/natives were lost in Jap occupied areas and there date of death was never known and only inquiried about once whites arrived back in many areas post war. I surpose like many WWI soldiers we may never know the full story. S.B Steve I see what you are saying about the problems involved when people do not have English as their first language, and also the thing about the Japanese occupying these areas. However, I could accept "died sometime between say, February 1942 and August 1945", that would make sense to me. The way details of these Papuan policemen are given at present doesn't. If you perform the same search, and put WW2 rather than 1939 you pick up a lot of cases in New Guinea for example, which have the "death period" down to a month or so! You are quite right about never knowing the full story of some peoples deaths, due to war circumstances. I would also add "government cover up" myself. The IWGC/CWGC has only the information supplied by the government in question, and if a government decides to 'clean up' its history it will be very difficult to get the record put right. Here is a site that you will find of use, if you don't know of it. It has quite a bit of detail on aborigines in both WW1 and WW2, and is written by an aborigine who is a serving soldier in the CMF. Some of the people on his site are his own family. There is also some detail on an aborigine pilot who flew in the Pacific, and called his plane "Black Magic". In a way my query about why a Maori would have joined the Australian army in answered. It seems as if the Australian government "had it in for" aborigines, rather than people of colour. There is some mention of aborigines pretending to be Maori's, Indians and even people from the south sea's. http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/stat.../620/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 26 October , 2003 Share Posted 26 October , 2003 Beppo, the info I posted comes from the CD- NZ WW1 Service Personnel and Reserves Index- published by the St John's group of the NZ Society of Genealogists, which only came out this year. There is a thread about it somewhere on this site. It is of great value if you are researching several people. The information was all available before, in books and microfiche, but was terrible to search through. This is much better. There is no equivalent for WW2. The nominal rolls are available on microfiche, and presumably in book form, although I have never actually used them As well, if you look at my answer to the JS Hilson thread, I have a copy of a data CD put out by the NZSG. This contains all sorts of things, such as a list of probates from Archives NZ, school records, some cemetery records, some marriage records, lists of early settlers, etc . This is already on its 3rd version and there will be more. No specifically military stuff as yet, but extra background info. I would be happy to look up anyone you like, on both of these Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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