1st Northumberland Fusiliers company lettering

[Terry]

As I read the war diary for the period Aug-Sept.,1914 on this website, I noticed that the companies of the 1st Northumberland Fusiliers are identified by the letters A,B,C, and D (which is what I would have expected). Further along, however, they are now identified as W,X,Y, and Z Companies. For example the old A Coy now is W Coy.

Could anyone clear this up for me? My knowledge of BEF units is sadly lacking.

Cheers,

Terry

[Geoff Parker]

Terry

I picked this out of a previous thread in which I'd replied to regarding the NF

"As the retreat continued the battalion eventually arrived at Villemareuil, being tasked with outpost duty near Le Moulin Farm on 4th September. On this day the companies were re-titled W, X, Y, & Z."

I don't know the reason for the change but I'm sure there are other regiments that adopted this lettering system. Maybe Fusilier Regiments. Can't say for certain of the top of my head

Geoff

[CROONAERT]

The 11/E.Lancs is just one of many units that adopted a "W,X,Y,Z" format. In this case ,it was on obtaining a new CO (who happened to be ex-NF!)in 1915.

I think there is further detail on this on another similar thread.

Dave.

[Muerrisch]

Croonaert: cannot find thread, 'Company' produces too many, 'company lettering' finds this thread only ..... any clues please?

ABCD were officially ordained by AO 323/1913, together with platoons 1 to 16 numbered through so that those of A company were 1 to 4. The 'flank platoons', with enhanced, but out-dated, status in some units were 1 and 16.

15Notts and Debys used WXYZ, and their CO was a Notts and Debys regular. I am a bit too busy to have a shufti in Westlake 'Battalions in France and Belgium 1914' but that might come in with an intrigueing hotch potch of lettering. Somewhat surprisingly for such an awkward regiment, RWF [Fusiliers, nb] toed the line.

This is quite an interesting subject. The TF did not play this game until into the war, because they did not adopt the 4 company organisation straight away, indeed some went to France with an 8 company organisation, A to H, I believe.

One last titbit. Had not AO 323/13 been promulgated, the BEF would have been in breach of 'Infantry Training' by anticipating the word of command, so to speak, because the 1914 issue, the first with 4 companies, was not approved until AO306 a few days after war was declared

[Terry]

Thanks,guys. I had just acquired a nice 1914 Star trio with clasp to a corporal who was with "C" Coy (or Y Coy) on the morning of 23 August,1914, so he would have been involved in some of the very first fighting of the war for the BEF.

Luckily this website has the Aug-Sept 1914 War Diary for the 1st Northumberland Fusiliers. Sure enough, my man is mentioned as being wounded went he went for water on 17 Sept.

[Muerrisch]

Westlake gives company letters for almost all regiments in book quoted. I have got as far as RSx, and only NF use W to Z, a transformation between beginning Sep and end Oct 1914.

[michaeldr]

Langley,

This may not be the 616 infantry battalions who were at the Somme, but for those interested in the British Army's 1915 version of alphabet soup, a quick flick (please note the caveat) through Ray Westlake's 'British Regiments at Gallipoli' has produced the following deviations from "abcd" which may be of interest

Northumberland Fusiliers,

8th (Service) Battalion = wxyz

Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment)

2nd Battalion = wxyz

Worcestershire Regiment,

4th Battalion = wxyz

9th (Service) Battalion = abcd

Hampshire Regiment,

2nd Battalion = wxyz

1/8th (I.of W. Rifles) Batt. (TF) = abcd

10th (Service) Battalion = abcd

Essex Regiment,

1st Battalion = wxyz

1/4th Battalion (TF) = abcd

1/5th = ?

1/6th = abcd

1/7th = abcd

Royal Munster Fusiliers,

1st Battalion = abcd

* however, from 28 Apr '15 till 19 May '15 formed composite battalion

"The Dubsters" with 1st RDF. "W" and "X" companies being from the Munsters

6th (Service) Battalion = abcd

7th (Service) Battalion = abcd

Royal Dublin Fusiliers,

1st Battalion = wxyz

6th (Service) Battalion = abcd

7th (Service) Battalion = abcd

London Regiment (TF) all battalions at Gallipoli used "abcd"

* including the 2/1st (City of London) Battalion (Royal Fusiliers)

however on 14 Dec '15 there is a ref. to a "Y" company

Others appear even more complicated

Manchester Regiment all battalions at Gallipoli used "abcd"

* however under 11th (Service) Battalion mention is made on 21 Aug '15

of companies "P" "R" and "S"

The Royal Scots (Lothian Regiment) not only used letters from both ends of the alphabet but numbers as well.

1/4th Battalion (TF) commenced using 'abcd'

July 1915 formed a composite battalion (with 1/7th RS) becoming "X" and "Y" companies

Aug 1915 reformed as separate battalion

Nov 1915 once again formed composite battalion (with 1/7th RS)

1/5th Battalion (TF) used 'wxyz'

1/7th Battalion (TF) used 'abcd' however after the Gretna rail disaster only two companies ["B" & "C"] proceeded to Gallipoli, landing on 13 June '15

July 1915 formed composite battalion ( 1/4th RS) providing "Z" company

Aug 1915 amalgamation discontinued

Sept 1915 battalion reorganised in to four companies; mention made of "No.1 Company"

Nov 1915 formed composite battalion (with 1/4th RS); mention made of "No.1" and of "No.2" companies

(1st Garrison Battalion used ?)

The Royal Scots were not the only regiment to use numbers

The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)

1/8th Battalion (TF) also had companies numbered 1, 2, 3 & 4

E & O E

Michael D.R.

[Muerrisch]

michaeldr: dascinating ... are we scratching at quite a big variation? I also have Westlakes other 2 volumes ...... if you have both, can we agree to search one each .....?

[michaeldr]

Langley,

Thanks for your post and your flattering invitation to join in the research

I agree that this subject begs to be looked at - Had you heard of any "P" "R" & "S" companies before? Alas, I do not own the rest of Mr Westlake's fine books and regret that I am also a couple of time zones away from a good/useful library. My book budget is over-stretched at the moment too, so it's really just as well I got in with the easy one first isn't it. Very sorry I can't be more help on this

Best regards

Michael D.R.

[Muerrisch]

Very well then, I will have a crack. As for R and S companies, no, never. A lonely thought has just crossed my mind. How often have I read a sentence begining thus:

"A company of the battalion was sent ......"

and done a double take: do they mean A Company, or a company? Perhaps the change was to avoid confusion in messages and reports.

And thoughts, in 2003.

[Bayne]

The 1st NF renamed their companies because of errors being made when orders were relayed verbally. For example in northern speech it would be easy to confuse "B" and "D"

I have encountered many other battalions who "rebranded" their companies from "A" "B" "C" and "D" to the WXYZ format and have assumed it was for a similar reason.

I think we forget that in the period 1914-18 regional accents were much more pronounced than later in the century

[CROONAERT]

Others appear even more complicated

Manchester Regiment all battalions at Gallipoli used "abcd"

* however under 11th (Service) Battalion mention is made on 21 Aug '15

of companies "P" "R" and "S"

The 11/Mancs adopted "P,Q,R and S" for their companies when based in Grantham (Lincs) in April 1915. I'm unsure of the reason why, but I think they kept this system until the end of the war.

The 11/East Lancs. changed from "A (Accrington),B (District),C (Chorley),D (Burnley), and E(reserve)" companies to "W,X,Y,Z and R" companies on 1 March 1915 at Caernarvon when Lt.Col.A.W.Rickman, 3/Northumberland Fus. became the CO.

Dave.

[Terry]

Thanks everyone for your input. When the Pals sink their teeth into a topic they don't let go!

[Muerrisch]

Here's a good extra one. Westlake Brit. Batts. Somme gives 20 Bn Kings Liverpool a No. 4 company. So we have, seemingly, A to D, W to Z, P to S, and 1 to 4. And I dare say there will be more we find.

[CROONAERT]

I've also seen references to companies for the 17th,18th and 19th Battalions as well as the 20th Liverpools (some references in official orders) being listed as "1,2,3 and 4". However ,I've also seen the companies for all four battalions referred to as "A,B,C,D" ,within the same time period. What was "official", and what wasn't, I don't know.

Dave.