MG's were used at Gallipoli

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

Can you help with any info on what MG's were used on Gallipoli.

Pre war records show that all MG's were Maxim's with all Bn's and Cav Regts.

But as the war started when did the Vicker's Mk 1 replace these older guns or were they already on issue to units?

Also when was the Lewis gun first issued to the British Army and was it in use at Gallipoli?

The French Hotchkiss 1914 MG or any Hotchkiss gun on issue to any British or Commonwealth units on Gallipoli?

Are there any other MG's I didn't mention you can think of used on Gallipoli by the British Army?

Thank for any insight.

S.B

[Chris Henschke]

The Battalion Machine Gun Section was not replaced by Lewis Gun detachments in 1 ANZAC until late July, 1916.

[Robert Dunlop]

The first Lewis guns were issued to the British Army in 1915. I am not aware that any reached the Gallipoli campaign.

Robert

[Richard Fisher]

Below is the message that I have posted on the diggerhistory forum:

Hello All,

I have been away for the weekend so my apologies for not responding sooner.

I am only able to answer queries or give opinion on the use of the Vickers or Maxim (two different guns - definition later) as this is the only area of weaponry that I know. The realms of Light Machine Guns of the Great War are, sadly, beyond me.

Firstly, to provide clear definitions of what I am talking about:

Vickers

The 1908 'Light Pattern' Maxim that was introduced into British Service in 1912 (by List of Changes 16217) and declared obsolete in 1968. Used, for our purposes, in .303-inch. Pictures available on my website (link in my signature).

Maxim

The British-manufactured Service Maxim. Used from late 1890s until replacement by the 'Vickers' as mentioned above. Used by British and Commonwealth countries. Also used in .303-inch. Different from the Vickers in having a larger receiver (breech of the gun) and therefore larger hand-grips. It also did not use a muzzle booster on the fore end of the gun.

MG08

The German-manufactured Maxim gun. Used by the German empire and her allies. Traditionally employed in 7.92mm calibre. Used an elongated muzzle booster and photos are generally available around the internet.

I have now completely reviewed the Australian War Memorial archives of all photographs that are held online under the search 'machine gun'. These are obviously significant primary information and can be taken as untampered or altered in anyway. They are also very well annotated including dates of their capture.

In the review, I have found that both the Vickers and Maxim were used at Gallipoli.

In picture G00944, a Maxim is shown in use. The caption is that it is 3 May 1915 and at Baby 700, Anzac.

In picture P01116.069, it is a Maxim again. c .August 1915. It is a Maxim due to the deeper breech and what seems to be the lack of muzzle attachment.

J02704 is undated but shows a Vickers in use which can be determined by the shallower breech and the muzzle attachment.

In J05597 and J05600, both taken at Lemnos, after evacuation in December 1915, the Maxim is shown in the former while I believe the latter (although not 100%) is a Vickers.

I hope this is of use and I am happy to provide any additional information I can.

Regards

Richard Fisher

[stevenbecker]

Mates mate,

Yes your bit on the other site was a great help.

As to what Ted was getting at is still not that certain.

Can you confirm any details about the Hotchkiss guns.

Were they issued to British Forces before the first guns given to the ALH in 1917.

Were these guns attached to British Forces on Gallipoli?

Purhaps if we can give him better info, he will not kept having a go at me.

Cheers

S.B

[Richard Fisher]

Mates mate,

Yes your bit on the other site was a great help.

Thank you very much. I had hoped it would be.

As to what Ted was getting at is still not that certain.

Can you confirm any details about the Hotchkiss guns.

Were they issued to British Forces before the first guns given to the ALH in 1917.

Were these guns attached to British Forces on Gallipoli?

I manage a weapons orientated forum myself and will ask the question on your behalf to see if any LMG specialists know.

Purhaps if we can give him better info, he will not kept having a go at me.

Cheers

S.B

Yeah, I noticed that - we'll see what we can do.

Rich

[Fromelles]

The Battalion Machine Gun Section was not replaced by Lewis Gun detachments in 1 ANZAC until late July, 1916.

Chris,

The Battalion MG Sections ceased to exist after Feb 1916 as they were reorganized into MG Companies, allocating one Coy per Brigade (total of 16 guns per MG Company).

MO (military orders) 291 of 27 Jun 16 has an extract of an AIF Order (undated or numbered) of the 'War Establishment' table of a Lewis MG Section. This pre dates July, 16.

Dan

[Chris Henschke]

Dan,

"The Battalion Machine Gun Section was not replaced by Lewis Gun detachments in 1 ANZAC until late July, 1916."

This is from General Staff Circular No. 14, H.Q. 1 ANZAC 31 July 1916

"Subject.- Organization of Lewis Gun Detachments.

1. The present establishment of Lewis guns is 8 per battalion; this will shortly be increased to 12.

2. Organization. The unit of organization will be the "Lewis Gun Detachment". These detachments will be allotted as follows:-

4 Coys - each 1 detachment - 4 detachments. (8 guns).

Battalion Headquarters - 2 " (4 guns).

Total in Battalion - 6 (12 guns)

3. Establishment. The Battalion Machine Gun Section, as such, will disappear."

Note: future tense.

Clearly, the Battalion Machine Gun Sections in 1 ANZAC existed up to that time.

Clearly, there was a transitional period when battalions in 1 ANZAC had Lewis Gun detachments as well as the MG section.

The earliest document that I have found that makes reference to 'Lewis Gun Sections' (instead of detachments) within the AIF is in a minute from HQ, 8th Australian Infantry Brigade to HQ, 5th Australian Division , dated 8th September, 1917.

Does the WE table you quote refer to it as a "Lewis MG Section"?

Chris Henschke

[Fromelles]

Chris,

I don't think a 'future tense' is clearly 'evidence' of the MG Sect existing till mid '16.

Throughout Beans he refers to the reorganization of Feb-Mar 16, and does specifically mention MG Sect - Coy.

Do you believe the II Anzac Corps (4th and 5th Divs) reorganized their machine guns into Companies in Feb '16 and I Anzac didn't?

MO 162 of 11 Apr 16 - states approval for Mobilization Store Tables of a Machine-gun Company to be taken into use forthwith.

More extracts of AIF Orders (Lists 36 & 37) found in MO 268 of 13 Jun 16 -

6th Infantry Brigade -

The undermentioned officers are seconded from their Battalions, as shown, for duty with the Brigade Machine Gun Company:-

2nd Lieut. R.C. Callister, 21st Battalion.

2nd Lieut. R. Windsor, 21st Battalion.

2nd Lieut. J.D. Campbell, 22nd Battalion.

Dated 10th March, 1916.

and

MO 290 of 27 Jun 16 (again an extract of AIF Order Lists 38 & 39 dated 14 Mar 16) lists all the Battn officers of the 5th, 6th, and 7th Brigades secondered to their respective MG Coys.

I think these go to some way to show that MG Companies (of I Anzac Corps) were up and running in early 16.

Finally, yes the actual title of MO 291 of 27 Jun 16 is "(5) War Establishment - Lewis Machine Gun Section" if I knew how I'd post the order.

I think I could email it though!

Dan

[Guest]

Dont forget that the RNAS Armoured Car Squadrons fought at Gallipoli using their machine guns dismounted from their cars. I'm not sure which particular machine guns they used but I'm sure some expert in the field would know. There is an interesting article on these units at Gallipoli in the Orders & Medals Research Society Journal Vol 44 No 4 of December 2005 pages 231 to 235, but I'm afraid it dosn't answer your question.

[Andrew P]

Hi Steve

The 28th Battalion history mentions that some of their men were using a Hotchkiss gun on Gallipoli.

Regards

Andrew

[Fromelles]

Andrew,

In late August three 3 pounder Hotchkiss anti-aircraft guns arrived at Gallipoli, complete with Japanese manuals which required a translator to produce the range tables.

Cheers,

Dan

[essdee]

This is from a map of 22 Nov. 1915 you may find it of interest

Stuart

[david murdoch]

Dont forget that the RNAS Armoured Car Squadrons fought at Gallipoli using their machine guns dismounted from their cars. I'm not sure which particular machine guns they used but I'm sure some expert in the field would know. There is an interesting article on these units at Gallipoli in the Orders & Medals Research Society Journal Vol 44 No 4 of December 2005 pages 231 to 235, but I'm afraid it dosn't answer your question.

No Expert but....

I have come across a couple of photos on the internet of Rolls Royce cars on Gallipoli (Presumably the RNAS ones) these were armed with Vickers Machine guns. They show the cars driven down into pits for protection, so just the armoured turret was showing above ground level. Not sure if these were being used as defensive positions. as fire support. or just to protect the vehicles from shellfire. It was also fairly common to use the guns out of the cars, as required by terrain or conditions. They carried standard tripods with them. I have a photo from Mesopotamia, showing the guns out of the cars on the tripods for servicing.

David