1/6th Black Watch query

[Desmond7]

I have read that 1/6th Black Watch had a 'battalion' (?) recruited from Belfast pre-1914 and also received more enlistments from there in August 1914.

I thought territorial units (on the mainland model) did not recruit in Ireland? Also, surely a battalion is much too large a figure? I can accept the idea of a company's worth .. but a battalion??

Anyone shed any light on this anomaly .. if it is one!!

Des

[Tom A McCluskey]

Desmond,

1/6th Black Watch is a Perthshire Battalion. It, like other battalions of other regiments, may have taken drafts from Ireland or anywhere else in the United Kingdom for that matter, later on in the war - when recruits were scarce but I don't think this was the case when it joined the 51st Highland Division in 1915.

I will get my father to look into it. So I will get back to you.

Hope this helps

Tom McC

[9th Black Watch]

Desmond,

I hope the following extract is of interest.

On August 4th, 1914, a fortnight after the Battalion had completed its annual training, orders were received to mobilize. On the morning of the 5th, men were pouring into their Company Headquarters, where they were medically examined, issued with identity discs, kit bags and ammunition. By the evening of the same day the 6th had become an organized unit and went into camp at Queensferry. Here it was immediately joined by two detachments, one from Belfast and another from Dublin. It is of interest to record that this Battalion of Highland soldiers had well-organized detachments in Ireland in 1914, and that these joined with the same enthusiasm as did the men from Perthshire.

A. G. Wauchope, A History of the Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) in the Great War, 1914 - 1918, Vol. II Territorial Force (London, 1926), 125-26.

Best wishes,

Derek

[Desmond7]

Thanks very much folks - any futher info would be very interesting.

I also know that Seaforths took a fairly big enlistment out of Belfast and district at around same time.

Looks like a fair few of them fancied a kilt!

Des

[Tom A McCluskey]

Desmond 7,

Regardless of the entry in the History of the Black Watch in the Great War Vol II By Wauchope. I stick by what I said.

Guys from any of the counties in the UK may have had a desire to join the Black Watch for whatever reason (family connections, liked the history, father was in etc.), and subsequently joined. However, the Black Watch did not have a Battalion from Northern Ireland; nor did it have Territorial Force companies there. It simply did not need to. It is more likely that the Territorial Force recruited from within the boundaries set by the Cardwell reforms.

I appreciate that casualties - normally through their regimental depot - could be sent to any battalion whose needs were most when the casualty was able to return to the front. This was not always the case later on in the war when many of the Scottish Regiments took drafts of mainly Englishmen, due to Scotland being unable to provide any more manpower.

Ireland provided plenty of manpower to all of the Regiments of the British Army in the 19th century. After the Cardwell reforms of 1881, in the main (but not all cases) one of two battalions of regular troops was abroad (flush with manpower) while the other battalion was at home (quite often short of manpower). It was more often the case that the regular battalions would have a larger percentage of Irish & English. The Territorials being more parochial.

As I stated the guys from Ireland could have joined the Black Watch for a number of reasons. But have a look at the place of origin of the brave Black Watch soldiers who died at Beaumont Hamel on 13 Nov 1916 on the attack on Y Ravine, most are from Perthshire as I stated:

Name/Rank/Number/Battalion Nationality From

ARMSTRONG, Pte . J. 1504 M.M. 6th Black Watch Scot Perth

BRADY, Pte . J. 6180 6th Black Watch Scot Dundee

GOODFELLOW, Pte . J. 4272 6th Black Watch Scot Perth

HALLEY, Sgt . B.C.T. 3284 6th Black Watch Scot Perth

KEMP, L/Cpl A. 1474 6th Black Watch Scot Comrie, Perthshire

KERR, Pte . A. 1641 6th Black Watch Scot Edinburgh

MCCALLUM, Pte . D. 2904 6th Black Watch Scot Comrie, Perthshire

MCGREGOR, Cpl . D. 2801 6th Black Watch Scot Stanley, Perthshire

MACLAREN, Cpl . I.D. 1961 6th Black Watch Scot Aberfeldy, Perthshire

MARTIN, Sgt . D.H. 3463 6th Black Watch Scot Crail, Fife

MILNE, Pte . R. 5182 6th Black Watch Scot Pitscandly, Forfar

PATERSON, Pte . R. 5671 6th Black Watch Scot Dunfermline, Fife

POTTER, Pte . W. 6211 6th Black Watch Scot Dundee

READER, Pte . W. 3599 6th Black Watch Eng Barnsley

RICHARDSON, Pte . J. 1813 6th Black Watch Scot Perth

RICHARDSON, Pte . T.A. 1253 6th Black Watch Scot Dunkeld, Perthshire

RITCHIE, Pte . W. 4266 6th Black Watch Scot Kinfauns, Perthshire

SAUNDERS, Pte . J.B. 5689 6th Black Watch Scot Kircaldy, Fife

SCOBIE, Pte . J. 2962 6th Black Watch Scot Perth

SMITH, Pte . J. 5152 6th Black Watch Scot Dunfermline, Fife

SMITH, Pte . J.M. 1940 6th Black Watch Scot Aberdeen

THOMSON, Pte . R. 3249 6th Black Watch Scot Alyth, Perthshire

THOMSON, Pte . W. 1700 6th Black Watch Scot Crief, Perthshire

THOMSON, Pte . W. 2628 6th Black Watch Scot Brydekirk, Annan

I used this Battle because I am looking into this action and have the names ranks and numbers of the soldiers involved. I appreciate this is in 1916 - but it still gives a fair idea of the soldiers within 6 BW. Most are Scottish and on this occasion one 'Englishman' from Barnsley.

Please don't take this as a pointy back-bite and I hope this helps

Tom McC

[Desmond7]

No problem Tom. As I said, I had been puzzled by talk of large number of organised Black Watchers in Belfast etc.

Des

[9th Black Watch]

Tom,

I understand the 6th Black Watch was a Perthshire Bn. as the 7th originated in Fife etc.

I am not disputing this.

The extract from Wauchope does not suggest there was a 'Battalion' from Ireland but two detachments.

I have no idea of the size of either 'detachment'.

I'm not really sure I understand your point?

As most men of a Perthshire battalion who fell at Beaumont Hamel in 1916 came from Perthshire there were no Irish detachments who joined before the 6th Bn. left for France in 1915?

Surely whoever compiled the Battalion 'History' - as I'm led to believe Wauchope was only responsible for compiling the section on the 2nd Bn. - got this correct?

Derek

[Tom A McCluskey]

Desmond 7,

Northern Irish & Southern Irish guys still joined the Black Watch when my father was in - but not in large numbers. Here is a song that some of the jocks would sing to wind up the officers. It is about an Irishman called McCafferty. I think he joined the Black watch in the 19th century and shot an officer. I think this versionit is by the Dubliners, and is sung to a traditiopnal arrangement. It might be based on a true story :

McCafferty

When I was eighteen years of age

Into the army I did engage

I left my home with a good intent

For to join the forty-second regiment

While I was posted on guard one day

Some soldiers' children came out to play

From the officers' quarters my captain came

And he ordered me for to take their names

I took one name instead of three

On neglect of duty they then charged me

I was confined to barracks with loss of pay

For doing my duty the opposite way

A loaded rifle I did prepare

For to shoot my captain in the barracks square

It was my captain I meant to kill

But I shot my colonel against my will

At Liverpool Assizes my trial I stood

And I held my courage as best I could

Then the old judge said, Now, McCafferty

Go prepare your soul for eternity

I had no father to take my part

No loving mother to break her heart

I had one friend and a girl was she

Who'd lay down her life for McCafferty

So come all you officers take advice from me

And go treat your men with some decency

For it's only lies and a tyranny

That have made a murderer of McCafferty

Hope this is of use

Tom McC

[Tom A McCluskey]

Derek

Please go back to Desmond 7s 1st post. He asks about Belfast Battalion. Next, Irishmen in the Black Watch. Yes there would be some, but not many, that is my next point.

Hope this clears that up

Tom McC

[9th Black Watch]

No problem Tom,

I'm familar with the McCafferty song although I'm not sure how accurate it is?

I notice your researching the 1/6th at Beaumont Hamel. If it's of any interest I have a couple of MM groups in my collection to 6th Battalion men - the gazette dates and entries in the Red Hackle suggest Beaumont Hamel awards.

If the details are of any interest let me know.

Derek

[9th Black Watch]

No problem Tom,

I'm familar with the McCafferty song although I'm not sure how accurate it is?

I notice your researching the 1/6th at Beaumont Hamel. If it's of any interest I have a couple of MM groups in my collection to 6th Battalion men - the gazette dates and entries in the Red Hackle suggest Beaumont Hamel awards.

If the details are of any interest let me know.

Derek

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello,

I've been doing some Voluntry archival work at RHQ The Black Watch, for Tommy Smyth, the Regimental Archivist. While on Lunch breaks I usually go for a wonder around the museum. In the Great War room there are some brass plaques, which I belive were taken from the regimental Kirk. One of the plaques is dedicated to the memory of the Belfast members of the 6th Black watch who fell in the Great War. Also, I am sure I saw a Pre War photo which was named as being of the Belfast Section of the 6th Black Watch. So it does seem that there was a pre war section of the Perthshire Battalion which was from Ireland. Next time I am in RHQ I will check these items again.

Regards,

Stewart

[Desmond7]

Thanks very much Stewart ... forgive me for asking .. were 6th Black Watch a different unit from 1/6th.

You can see I am well out of Ulster/Irish waters on this one!!!

Des

[9th Black Watch]

Des,

If you can get a hold of R. Thomson's 'Coleraine Heroes 1914 - 1918' you'll find details and photographs of at least three local lads who joined the 6th Battalion in 1914.

The following extract concerns S-40444 Pte. James Alfred Henry, 8th Black Watch (formerly 2652 1/6th Bn.), killed in action 26 March 1918.

If the other names are of interest I'll have a look for you.

Derek

James was the elder son of James and Annie Henry of Nursery Avenue in Coleraine and by the time of his death had served for two years in France. He was educated in the Irish Society School in Coleraine and is commemorated on a lovely plaque in the foyer of the school. He was also a dedicated member of the Bann Rowing Club in Coleraine and is commemorated on a large brass plaque in the boathouse. His brother, Second Lieut. Robert Noel Henry, was also serving with the Ulster Division in France.

James, or Jimmy, as he was known at home, was a senior Lewis gunner in the Battalion and had been through many other engagements without mishap. A letter from a comrade, John A. Burton, tells of Jimmy being shot through the head to the South-East of Dernancourt village.

Before enlisting Jimmy was a pupil teacher in the Irish Society’s schools, afterwards going to Marlborough Training College in Dublin. He had also acted as assistant master in Ballymoney Model School. His father was also a teacher in the Irish Society’s schools, as was his sister Annie. His uncle Robert was also in the teaching profession and was head master of Coleraine Model School, while another uncle, William Henry, was Town Clerk in Coleraine.

He was also a very close friend of Arnold Todd and both of them played football for Avondale Football club, and incidentally, both were serving in the Black Watch. Both were also members of the Bann Rowing Club and eventually both would give their lives for their country.

It is now known that Jimmy Henry and Arnold Todd enlisted together and were given sequential numbers, Jimmy being given 2652, Arnold 2653. The two friends reported to Ebrington Barracks, Londonderry, on 3th December 1914, and that evening travelled to Scotland. They reported to the Regimental Depot the following day and did much of their training at Hawick. As the 6th Battalion was a Territorial Battalion they had to be asked to volunteer for Foreign Service and it is known that Arnold volunteered on 7th March 1915 and Jimmy probably did the same.

There were various people in the Hawick area with Coleraine connections and one of these, Rev. Steedman welcomed the two friends to his church and to his home. The man’s relatives had a Chemist shop in the Diamond in Coleraine at the time of the Great War.

Jimmy’s number was changed when he transferred at a later date to the 8th Battalion. Jimmy was killed during the Great German Spring Offensive of March 1918 when the British Forces were being pushed relentlessly backwards and as a result there is no known grave and Jimmy is commemorated on the Pozieres Memorial.

Early on the 26th March they proceeded as part of a force of about 2000 and organised as two battalions under the command of Lieut. Col. Hadow to Mericourt L’Abbe and under instructions received from 7th Corps took up a line from Mericourt L’Abbe to Sailly-le-Sec. This line was maintained until relief by 43rd and 38th battalions Australian Infantry on 28th March. In the meantime two men had been killed on the 26th, one of them, I presume, being Jimmy. This bears out what John Burton had written to the bereaved family in Coleraine at the time. It would appear most likely that he was buried behind the lines at the time but when battlefield clearance took place after the war his grave could not be found.

The family worshipped in New Row Presbyterian Church in Coleraine and Jimmy is also commemorated there. R. Thompson, Coleraine Heroes 1914 – 1918 (Coleraine, 2004), 225-226.

[Desmond7]

Many thanks!

Mr. Thompson's work has been the inspiration for many researchers over here. The 'Grand Old Man' as they say.

Des

[gnr.ktrha]

'' Thanks very much Stewart ... forgive me for asking .. were 6th Black Watch a different unit from 1/6th.''

Hello Des,

The 6th {Perthshire}Battalion, The Royal Highlanders [black Watch] TF was mobilized, like all Tf units, in Aug 1914. Now, as a TF unit, they could not be ordered abroad, however they could be asked to volunteer. All the men who were above the minimum age who volunteered were then formed into the First Line Battalion of the TF Battalion ie, 1/6th Bn. The soldiers who were underage to serve abroad and those who did not volunteer were formed into 2/6th Bn. At first anyway. They were to act as a reserve of trained men to the 1/6th Bn. Later a 3/6th Bn was formed also as a reserve Bn.

Thats the basics. Like most things, it is not that straight forward, and there is plenty that could be added, however, the 1/6th Battalion was the only one to serve as a Fighting unit.

Regards,

Stewart

[Desmond7]

Got it!

Des

[Tom A McCluskey]

Stewart,

I hate to say this, and i am very familiar with Balhousie Castle and those that hold appointments there;

But do you really want me to disect another 1/6 th BW battle?... Just on the off-chance that some Irish soldiers died in 1/6th the Black Watch during the First World War?

If this is your desire, PM me and I will get you your statistics

Tom McC

[Desmond7]

Tom - with all due respect, I can't see where Stewart has requested anything.

I simply stated that I have come across books and articles in which, it is claimed, Belfast had some kind of Black Watch detachment pre-WW1.

You say there may have been the 'odd recruit' but you have no knowledge of any organised detachment.

Stewart says he 'thinks' there is some evidence for an organised detachment and offers to have a look at various plaques to see if they will verify this ...

I'm thankful for help from all sources on this forum. Each of us have areas of expertise and we can draw on each other's help.

I am certainly not seeking anyone to dissect any battles.

[Tom A McCluskey]

Fair point Desmond, apologies if the last comment came across as a bit sharp

Tom McC

[Desmond7]

No problem.

Des

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello Des,

I've found a image of the plaque, it's not great because of the flash on the Brass but it does read ''To the memory of the Dublin Section of the 6th Battalion the Black Watch, who fell during the great war''.

Next time I am up at the museum, I will try and get a better photo. It does, in conjunction with great War history of the Watch, seem to suggest that there was a Pre August 1914 section in the 6th battalion which was recruited in Ireland. As I mentioned, I'm sure I also saw a photo of members from this section in the museum. I think it might have been taken at there 1914 camp at Monzie, near Crieff.

Don't worry about Tom and his reactions to peoples posts Ha Ha! I've come across him before. Most of us who use the forum are more interested in establishing facts, from the prime source material. I, for one, like to be fairly sure of facts before I voice an opinion.

Regards,

Stewart

[Desmond7]

Thanks for that.

Des

[Tom A McCluskey]

Stewart,

No fighting keep your hands in your pockets - I'm here to give you a hand now.

There is a good chance that the detachment in Dublin/Belfast were a mix of ex-regulars that still had time to serve in the reserve and sons of planters. I can't remember all the types of engagement, but for example after 7 years service I think they might have to do time in the reserves (possibly 3 years). Messenger's book a Call to Arms covers this in detail but I don't have it to hand.

When chaps were called up they would generally go to their depot/HQ, then distributed as necessary.

Out of interest, here's the Black Watch soldiers from Dublin, that were killed in the First World War. It can provides a rough snapshot/sample of how they were distibuted. Looks like a couple were in Fergus Bowes-Lyon's Battalion, and there are five from 6 BW:

Surname: ALLEN

Forename: Arthur C.

Rank: Private

Born: Born Allandale, Co. Dublin

NextOfKin: Son of James and Mary Elizabeth Allen, of "Allendale," Highfleld Rd., Rathgar, Co. Dublin

Resided:

Enlisted: Enlisted Dublin

UnitNo: S/13095

Unit: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)

Battalion: 8th (Service) Battalion

Formerly:

Service: British Army

MannerOfDeath: Killed in action

DateOfDeathText: 19th October 1916

PlaceOfDeath: France & Flanders

Age: Age 18

Cemetery: VII. A. IO., Warlencourt British Cemetery - Pas De Calais - France.

Surname: ANDERSON

Forename: Thomas

Rank: Private

Born: Born Dublin

NextOfKin:

Resided:

Enlisted: Enlisted Edinburgh

UnitNo: S/3602

Unit: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)

Battalion: 8th (Service) Battalion

Formerly:

Service: British Army

MannerOfDeath: Killed in action

DateOfDeathText: 27th September 1915

PlaceOfDeath: France & Flanders

Surname: DOUGLAS

Forename: Patrick

Rank: Private

Born: Born Dublin

NextOfKin:

Resided:

Enlisted: Enlisted Dublin

UnitNo: 2753

Unit: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)

Battalion: 1st Battalion

Formerly:

Service: British Army

MannerOfDeath: Killed in action

DateOfDeathText: 18th April 1918

PlaceOfDeath: France & Flanders

Age:

Cemetery:

Awarded: Awarded Military Medal.

Surname: ELLAM

Forename: Arthur John

Rank: Acting Corporal

Born: Born Rathmichael, Co. Dublin

NextOfKin:

Resided:

Enlisted: Enlisted Crewe, Cheshire

UnitNo: 7816

Unit: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)

Battalion: 1st Battalion

Formerly:

Service: British Army

MannerOfDeath: Killed in action

DateOfDeathText: 9th May 1915

PlaceOfDeath: France & Flanders

Surname: MAGIE

Forename: Lionel Bradley King

Rank: Private

Born: Born Sandymont, Dublin

NextOfKin:

Resided:

Enlisted: Enlisted Perth

UnitNo: S/40736

Unit: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)

Battalion: 8th (Service) Battalion

Formerly:

Service: British Army

MannerOfDeath: Killed in action

DateOfDeathText: 9th April 1917

PlaceOfDeath: France & Flanders

Surname: MCMULLEN

Forename: Eric Newland

Rank: Private

Born: Born Dublin

NextOfKin: Son of Kate McMullen, of 2, Arranmore Rd., Herbert Park, Dublin, and the late Robert Brown McMullen

Resided:

Enlisted: Enlisted Perth

UnitNo: 2061

Unit: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)

Battalion: 6th (Perthshire) Battalion (Territorial)

Formerly:

Service: British Army

MannerOfDeath: Killed in action

DateOfDeathText: 3rd June 1915

PlaceOfDeath: France & Flanders

Age: Age 28

Cemetery: Panels 24 to 26, Le Touret Memorial - Pas De Calais - France.

Surname: NESBITT

Forename: James Bowden

Rank: Private

Born: Born Dublin

NextOfKin: Son of W. H. and Jeannie Nesbitt, of 54, North Strand Rd., Dublin

Resided:

Enlisted: Enlisted Dublin

UnitNo: 1236

Unit: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)

Battalion: 6th (Perthshire) Battalion (Territorial)

Formerly:

Service: British Army

MannerOfDeath: Died of wounds

DateOfDeathText: 16th July 1915

PlaceOfDeath: France & Flanders

Age:

Cemetery: VIII. B. 62., Boulogne Eastern Cemetery - Pas De Calais - France

Awarded:

Miscellaneous: Was Customs and Excise Officer at Bantry, Co. Cork, at the outbreak of war

Surname: PARKINSON

Forename: John

Rank: Lance Corporal

Born: Born Dublin

NextOfKin: Son of William and Esther Parkinson, of 70, Heytesbury St., Dublin. Late of Irish Land Commission

Resided:

Enlisted: Enlisted Perth

UnitNo: 1990

Unit: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)

Battalion: 6th (Perthshire) Battalion (Territorial)

Formerly:

Service: British Army

MannerOfDeath: Killed in action

DateOfDeathText: 22nd October 1916

PlaceOfDeath: France & Flanders

Age: Age 21

Cemetery: II. J. 7., Auchonvillers Military Cemetery - Somme - France.

Surname: SWAN

Forename: William

Rank: Private

Born: Born Dublin

NextOfKin:

Resided:

Enlisted: Enlisted Perth

UnitNo: S/4089

Unit: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)

Battalion: 9th (Service) Battalion

Formerly:

Service: British Army

MannerOfDeath: Killed in action

DateOfDeathText: 25th September 1915

PlaceOfDeath: France & Flanders

Surname: SYMES

Forename: Trevor Eyre

Rank: Private

Born: Born Dublin

NextOfKin: Son of Lucy Sarah Symes and the late Robert Warren Symes, of 3, College Green, Dublin

Resided:

Enlisted: Enlisted Perth

UnitNo: 2155

Unit: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)

Battalion: 6th (Perthshire) Battalion (Territorial)

Formerly:

Service: British Army

MannerOfDeath: Died of wounds

DateOfDeathText: 13th June 1915

PlaceOfDeath: France & Flanders

Age: Age 26

Cemetery: V. D. 12., Brown's Road Military Cemetery, Festubert - Pas De Calais - France

Surname: WALKER

Forename: Henry Herbert

Rank: Private

Born: Born St. Catherine, Dublin

NextOfKin:

Resided:

Enlisted: Enlisted Glasgow

UnitNo: 3/4216

Unit: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)

Battalion: 2nd Battalion

Formerly:

Service: British Army

MannerOfDeath: Killed in action

DateOfDeathText: 25th September 1915

PlaceOfDeath: France & Flanders

Surname: WILSON

Forename: Charles David

Rank: Private

Born: Born Dublin

NextOfKin:

Resided:

Enlisted: Enlisted Perth

UnitNo: S/25557

Unit: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)

Battalion: 6th (Perthshire) Battalion (Territorial)

Formerly:

Service: British Army

MannerOfDeath: Killed in action

DateOfDeathText: 24th October 1918

PlaceOfDeath: France & Flanders

Surname: WISEMAN

Forename: Joseph

Rank: Private

Born: Born Dublin

NextOfKin:

Resided:

Enlisted: Enlisted Dublin

UnitNo: S/15853

Unit: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)

Battalion: 2nd Battalion

Formerly:

Service: British Army

MannerOfDeath: Killed in action

DateOfDeathText: 14th March 1917

PlaceOfDeath: Persian Gulf

Tom McC

[gnr.ktrha]

No fighting keep your hands in your pockets - I'm here to give you a hand now.

No worries Tom,

It's not going to be hand bags at dawn Thanks for the offer of giving me a hand, but I think it is Des who was asking for info.

You are correct that there were members of the Regular Black Watch who were on the reserve and were called back to the colours in 1914, and yes some were living in Ireland. I understand at this period, though, Regulars were posted to Regular Battalions for the main part and not to TF units, if it could be helped. The 1st Bn, which was at Aldershot in 1914, had to take on over 500 reservists to bring it up to War establishment, the rest were placed under the command of the Depot, to act as a trained reserve.

Now when you take into account the information from Wauchope, which states that there was a Detachment in 1914 from Ireland [it does not say they were raised in responce to the war, or raised from the Reserve, and does seem to read as it being a pre war part of the unit, & I don't think they would have got a mention if they just turned up to join the battalion], The fact Des has come across a reference to a Pre War Detachment in Ireland, and the fact there is a Plaque in the museum which related to the 'Dublin Section of the 6th Black Watch' [ The wording of the plaque is interesting because it calls them a Section, not a contingent or Volunteers] It all points in the direction of it being a pre war detachment within the 6th Black Watch. The bit that does seem odd is that the Irish Men should choose the Black Watch and not, say the 9th HLI {Glasgow Highlander}, The HLI being based in an area closer to Ireland.

Regards ,

Stewart