Desmond7 Posted 25 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 25 February , 2006 I have MANY more Seaforth, Royal Scots and ESPECIALLY HLI references in my research. That is why the Black Watch reference intrigued me. Cheers Des Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 25 February , 2006 Share Posted 25 February , 2006 Stewart, The likes of Anderson, Douglas, Walker, Wilson are possibly off Scottish planters due to the surnames. Possibly, their fathers/grandfathers/great granfathers served in the 42nd or 73rd or as the Black Watch 1st and 2nd Battalion. Maybe, they socialized together in a kind of Scottish expat club/church/sports team and came to the mainland to join-up together. There will also be Irish soldiers who had relatives in the Black Watch who were just interested in joining, along with those that just wanted to join the Black Watch. I wonder if there were any additional social factors that steered these men towards the Black Watch? There could possibly be a entry in the 1/6 BW diary, or maybe even a newspaper entry that would provide further evidence (Scotsman online/Courier/Local Perthshire newspaper of the period). I believe the regimental magazine The Red Hackle was first published in 1921. If there is some kind of chronicle that predates this, then that may cover the story of the Dublin recruits. Possibly even a Dublin newspaper. The words used to describe the troops, such as section and detachment, you would hope were used in the correct context. For instance detachment, in a military sense, would mean away from the main body/battalion etc., and a section would be a sub-component of a platoon. Obviously, the names I have provided are only those in Dublin. There maybe some more from the surrounding towns. Looking up recruits from N.Ireland has not been easy, but I will try to obtain some information. I notice that possibly 4 of the 5 (6th Black Watch soldiers) were enlisted in Perth. I wonder how the Dublin Fusiliers felt about their potential recruits choosing to do their service in the Black Watch Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9th Black Watch Posted 26 February , 2006 Share Posted 26 February , 2006 Hi all, Here a few interesting extracts from the Scotsman which mention the Irish volunteers serving with the 6th BW. Evidently the Irish detachments or 'half-company' drilled in Ireland and joined the 6th Battalion for summer training. Derek Friday 7 August 1914 - Section A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9th Black Watch Posted 26 February , 2006 Share Posted 26 February , 2006 Friday 7 August 1914 - Section B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9th Black Watch Posted 26 February , 2006 Share Posted 26 February , 2006 Friday 28 August 1914 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9th Black Watch Posted 26 February , 2006 Share Posted 26 February , 2006 Tuesday, 1 September 1914 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 26 February , 2006 Share Posted 26 February , 2006 Well done 9th , I'll happily stand corrected on this on this. Shows some dedication to pay your own passage to Scotland for annual camp. From the first article, maybe the prevailing social tensions (prior to the war), was part of a series of factors that made it easier to carry out soldiering away from Ireland. Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 26 February , 2006 Share Posted 26 February , 2006 Desmond. This was mentioned in the Northern Ireland Assmbly, on the 22nd January 2002. The SPeaker was Dr Adamson, I have put the preamble before the piece of interest so that it is in context. But by all accounts it looks like 6th Black Watch and the Seaforth Highlanders had a recruiting office in Belfast: Chaulnes Area Dr Adamson: I beg to move That this Assembly notes the intention of the French Government to build a new airport in the area around Chaulnes in Picardy to serve Paris and requests the UK Government to consult closely with the French Government to ensure that due respect and honour are paid to the graves of those who gave their lives in the two world wars. I thank my co-sponsors for tabling the motion. In June 1895 the last great Government in the Western World to exhibit all the characteristics of ancient aristocracy took office in England. For the most part they were great landowners and country gentlemen who regarded union with Ireland as sacrosanct and who proudly became the Unionist party to resist the attempts of Mr Gladstone to introduce home rule for Ireland. They were extremely talented individuals. In that year the Marquis of Dufferin and Ava was British ambassador to Paris, and was well respected by the French. He wrote in his diary that besides reading 11 plays of Aristotle in Greek he had learned, by heart, 24,000 words from the Persian dictionary, 8,000 perfectly, 12,000 pretty well and 4,000 imperfectly. In 1861 Lord Dufferin built the famous Helen’s Tower on his estate at Clandeboye outside Bangor, County Down. It was originally a gamekeeper’s residence constructed with the aid of labourers who were made destitute by the recent Great Famine in Ireland. It enshrines today the memory of Helen, the Dowager Lady Dufferin, author of ‘The Irish Emigrant’, who died in 1867 of breast cancer. The tower is particularly beautiful, and it was immortalised by the great poets of the age. At the other end of the road that leads to it is the village of Conlig, where a little cottage stands in which William Sloan, my grandmother’s cousin, was born. At the age of 19 William joined the 11th Royal Irish Rifles. It became part of the 36th (Ulster) Division, which was formed from the Ulster Volunteer Force under extraordinary political circumstances. The first world war stands like a searing scar across the face of human history. Time had stood still since the age of Moses and the patriarchs, but the great war was to change that and the whole world forever. Following the outbreak of the war, the British Army raised 82 battalions in Ireland by the end of 1914, of which Ulster contributed 42. Out of 145,000 voluntary recruits from Ireland, Ulster contributed approximately 75,000. No fewer than 46,000 recruits were from Belfast, which stood second on the roll of British cities for numbers of recruits in proportion to population until the imposition of universal service. In addition to the famous 36th (Ulster) Division, there were six battalions of the regular Army from Ulster, five Ulster battalions from the 10th (Irish) Division and five more in the 16th (Irish) Division. Inspired by old family traditions, many Ulstermen chose to enlist in Scottish battalions such as the 6th Black Watch and 4th Seaforth Highlanders, who also had a recruiting office in Belfast. These formed part of the 51st (Highland) Division. Others joined the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. There were also many Ulstermen in the London Irish, the Church Lads’ battalion of the King’s Royal Rifles, the Bantam battalions and the Royal Scots, Cheshires and Sherwood Foresters. Besides the recruits from Ireland, many men who had been born in Ulster were to be found in the Dominion troops, especially among the Canadians, with whom two Ulstermen won the Victoria Cross. Hope this helps Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownag Posted 26 February , 2006 Share Posted 26 February , 2006 I got an e-mail from Jock Bruce a couple of years ago where amongst other things in his mail he mentioned he had found quite a few Belfast men in the 5th Seaforths in early 1915 and couldn't figure out why they were there. From the posts above it looks like the 5th Bn as well as the 4th Bn recruited in Belfast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 26 February , 2006 Author Share Posted 26 February , 2006 I got this for Jock Bruce some time ago ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmclark Posted 31 August , 2009 Share Posted 31 August , 2009 Tom (if you're still on this forum!) you mentioned the list below from 13th Nov 1916 but my great uncle wasn't on your list. I am trying to find more information about him and looking for any leads on where I could find out anything about how he died or anything else about his war. Would you (or Derek?) have any info on him? Private GEORGE CLARK 3426, 1st/6th Bn., Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) who died age 22 on 13 November 1916 Y RAVINE CEMETERY, BEAUMONT-HAMEL Thanks David Clark As I stated the guys from Ireland could have joined the Black Watch for a number of reasons. But have a look at the place of origin of the brave Black Watch soldiers who died at Beaumont Hamel on 13 Nov 1916 on the attack on Y Ravine, most are from Perthshire as I stated: Name/Rank/Number/Battalion Nationality From ARMSTRONG, Pte . J. 1504 M.M. 6th Black Watch Scot Perth BRADY, Pte . J. 6180 6th Black Watch Scot Dundee GOODFELLOW, Pte . J. 4272 6th Black Watch Scot Perth HALLEY, Sgt . B.C.T. 3284 6th Black Watch Scot Perth KEMP, L/Cpl A. 1474 6th Black Watch Scot Comrie, Perthshire KERR, Pte . A. 1641 6th Black Watch Scot Edinburgh MCCALLUM, Pte . D. 2904 6th Black Watch Scot Comrie, Perthshire MCGREGOR, Cpl . D. 2801 6th Black Watch Scot Stanley, Perthshire MACLAREN, Cpl . I.D. 1961 6th Black Watch Scot Aberfeldy, Perthshire MARTIN, Sgt . D.H. 3463 6th Black Watch Scot Crail, Fife MILNE, Pte . R. 5182 6th Black Watch Scot Pitscandly, Forfar PATERSON, Pte . R. 5671 6th Black Watch Scot Dunfermline, Fife POTTER, Pte . W. 6211 6th Black Watch Scot Dundee READER, Pte . W. 3599 6th Black Watch Eng Barnsley RICHARDSON, Pte . J. 1813 6th Black Watch Scot Perth RICHARDSON, Pte . T.A. 1253 6th Black Watch Scot Dunkeld, Perthshire RITCHIE, Pte . W. 4266 6th Black Watch Scot Kinfauns, Perthshire SAUNDERS, Pte . J.B. 5689 6th Black Watch Scot Kircaldy, Fife SCOBIE, Pte . J. 2962 6th Black Watch Scot Perth SMITH, Pte . J. 5152 6th Black Watch Scot Dunfermline, Fife SMITH, Pte . J.M. 1940 6th Black Watch Scot Aberdeen THOMSON, Pte . R. 3249 6th Black Watch Scot Alyth, Perthshire THOMSON, Pte . W. 1700 6th Black Watch Scot Crief, Perthshire THOMSON, Pte . W. 2628 6th Black Watch Scot Brydekirk, Annan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundeesown Posted 31 August , 2009 Share Posted 31 August , 2009 Hi David and welcome to the Forum. Your Great Uncle is on the lists in Soldiers Died In The Great War and in the Battalion history in the History Of The Black Watch (In The Great War). I think Tom just overlooked your Great Uncle, This is from the HOTBW. "The method of attack was for the Battalion to assault in four waves,each wave had a definite objective,and was held responsible for the taking and cleaning up of the portion of the enemy line allotted to it,and for bombing up the communication trenches towards the next line.The first wave consisted of two platoons of A company on the right and two platoons of B company on the left,their duty being the taking of the enemy front line and the head of the ravine.The second wave,consisting of the two remaining platoons of A and two of B,were to pass through the first wave and take the enemy`s second trench. The third wave was composed of two platoons of C company,and two platoons of D company,their object being to pass through the first two waves and take the enemy third line.The fourth wave,the remaining platoons of C and D,were given the German fourth line and the bank beyond it." I hope this is of some help to you. all the best Gary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmclark Posted 5 September , 2009 Share Posted 5 September , 2009 Thanks Gary that's interesting - I'll try to get a copy of the History Of The Black Watch (In The Great War). I'd also like to visit the archives in Perth sometime. All the best David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesley Wright Posted 14 September , 2009 Share Posted 14 September , 2009 WILSON, JOSEPH Initials: J Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Private Regiment/Service: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) Unit Text: 1st/6th Bn. Age: 21 Date of Death: 01/04/1917 Service No: 268272 Additional information: Son of William and Jane Wilson, of Shivey, Sandholes, Dungannon, Co. Tyrone. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: IV. B. 10. Cemetery: MAROEUIL BRITISH CEMETERY [/size]WILSON, THOMAS Initials: T Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Private Regiment/Service: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) Unit Text: 1st/6th Bn. Age: 24 Date of Death: 01/04/1917 Service No: 268276 Additional information: Son of William and Jane Wilson, of Shivey, Sandholes, Dungannon, Co. Tyrone. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: IV. B. 9. Cemetery: MAROEUIL BRITISH CEMETERY Killed on same day--buried side by side--only Joseph on Cookstown War Memorial.?? Believed to have moved to Shettleston -Glasgow--when?? They also had T/A numbers 7981+6507 for Joseph-and Thomas 7754 and 6511. Name: KELLY, HENRY MITCHELL Initials: H M Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Private Regiment/Service: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) Unit Text: 1st/6th Bn. Age: 24 Date of Death: 03/04/1916 Service No: 3261 Additional information: Son of John and Rebecca Kelly, of Mochan, Castlecaulfield, Co. Tyrone. Casualty Type: Dungannon War Memorial.--born Coleraine Could they have enlisted orginally in Ireland. Wesley Wright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARMAGH Posted 14 September , 2009 Share Posted 14 September , 2009 Hello Wesley "Could they have enlisted orginally in Ireland"? This subject has been debated before, but the answer is yes, and I do,nt want to upset my old comrade from the Black Watch, in Armagh there were a few who enlisted in the 6 th Bn Black Watch. There were 2 reunions held in Ireland in the early 60s one in Belfast where the Queen Mum attended and one in Dublin. Yours Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARMAGH Posted 16 September , 2009 Share Posted 16 September , 2009 Balhousie Castle the home of the Black Watch (RHR) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARMAGH Posted 8 May , 2010 Share Posted 8 May , 2010 From the Belfast Inst site, an other Irish man in the Black Watch. Must have been good training as quite a few went on to gain a commission. http://www.instgreatwar.com/page17.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARMAGH Posted 8 September , 2013 Share Posted 8 September , 2013 Irish men in the Black Watch I came across this article in the Irish Sword No 115 Summer 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 8 September , 2013 Share Posted 8 September , 2013 David, This is an old thread that has been brought back to my attention by Joe's piece (above). Reference your relative: quite right, he was killed in action with the 6th Black Watch at the battle of Beaumont Hamel. Apologies for the oversight at the time and rest assured that George is on my more-detailed list: Clark, George Pte 3426 13/11/1916 KIA "Y" Ravine Cemetery, Beaumont-Hamel, Row B. 64. Son of Mr. and Mrs. David Clark, of 7, Commercial St., Coupar Angus. Age 22 Aye, Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 8 September , 2013 Share Posted 8 September , 2013 Thanks very much folks - any futher info would be very interesting. I also know that Seaforths took a fairly big enlistment out of Belfast and district at around same time. Looks like a fair few of them fancied a kilt! Des Correct the 3rd VB Seaforth Hrs. had detachments in Ireland well before the war when many of the regulars were in Africa fighting the Boer War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Apwilson Posted 31 March , 2016 Share Posted 31 March , 2016 In relation to Thomas and Joseph Wilson, I am the great niece and have just returned from visiting their graves. My father, their nephew, still resides at Shivy and would like to get in contact with Mike J Byrne who has been on this forum this would appear to be a lost family link from just after the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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